Speeding ticket

[Lowrider Dave]

Got back from New Zealand today after 23 days out there, and waiting in the pile of post was a speeding ticket. This is my first ever speeding ticket and I've been driving for over 28 years now! I am very annoyed with myself for allowing this to happen - 35 in a 30 area, not a street with houses or school but a odd mile-long downhill duel carriageway outside of Southampton that I rarely use. Arse. Oh well, looks like an awareness course for me then!

[Cavalier342]

Unlucky mate, but I can top that!

8 year driving record, clean as a whistle until February this year when I picked up 3 points driving my mum's Peugeot diesel saloon... Awaiting the embarrassing comments... And that's while owning a V6 Cavalier, which would have been the obvious car to gain me a speeding ticket, I ended up getting 3 points in a diesel saloon. Yes... How awkward. You know the worst part? They didn't even offer me an awareness course. "Apparently" it's not an option for residents of Dorset, Hampshire, or London areas. It's what it said on the letter...


Anyways, how was your trip to the other side of the planet? I loved our holiday there, I'm sure you did too?

[Lowrider Dave]

Yes thanks mate, fully enjoyed our holiday out there, plenty of car photos to come - but a staggering 3049 photos were taken - so you'll have to wait until I've cataloged and filed them before sharing - it'll be worth the wait I assure you!
With current work required on the automatic, I'll have to pass up the change of having your V6 for a while yet. I'll back to you if it hasn't sold soon.

[Robsey]

35 in a 30?
That should not have generated a ticket.

In a 30 zone you are allowed + 10% + 2mph
Which amazingly is 35.

I have just been done too... 37 on a very busy 30 mph road. Driving with the flow of traffic... oh poo!!

[Cavalier342]

I always thought it was +10% which would be 33mph. I guess you learn something new every day.

[Robsey]

Wording is a bit ambiguous, but this is what the .gov site says.

Speed Enforcement

The Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) has issued speed enforcement policy guidance, which suggests that enforcement will normally occur when a driver exceeds the speed limit by a particular margin. This is normally 10 per cent over the speed limit plus 2 mph. It also sets guidelines for when it would not be appropriate to issue a fixed penalty notice but to issue a summons instead (see below). Note that these are guidelines and that a police officer has discretion to act outside of them providing he acts fairly, consistently and proportionately.

Speed limit: 20 mph 
ACPO charging threshold: 24 mph 
Summons: 35 mph

Speed limit: 30 mph 
ACPO charging threshold: 35 mph 
Summons: 50 mph

Speed limit: 40 mph 
ACPO charging threshold: 46 mph 
Summons: 66 mph

Speed limit: 50 mph 
ACPO charging threshold: 57 mph 
Summons: 76 mph

Speed limit: 60 mph 
ACPO charging threshold: 68 mph 
Summons: 86 mph

Speed limit: 70 mph 
ACPO charging threshold: 79 mph 
Summons: 96 mph

Reading it carefully is does say "exceed" + 10% + 2 mph.
But then it does say at the officer's discretion.

In these times of cost cutting and maintaining budgets, it is likely that officers would be encourages to use their discretion to fine people below the threshold, as long as they do it consistently.

Taking your line of thought Andrei, there is less chance for you to get a fine if you ignore the +2 mph bit.

[James McGrath]

Welcome back Dave. Glad to hear you had a nice time anyway.

Bit of a bummer about the speeding ticket. Hopefully they won't slap a big fine on top of it.
I got one in 2010 less than a year after I started driving witch was doing 59 in a 50 zone, which I thought was a bit harsh at the time for a quiet A-road. That was about a month before they started offering the speed awareness course too.

This article is a bit distressing:

http://www.driving.co.uk/news/just-1mph ... -speeding/

[humbucker]

I've had a few speeding tickets, and I spent many years dangerously encouraging a (second) ban from the nation's highways by racking up nine points on my license in the space of a few months. Of all the speeding fines I've had, however, one sticks out as a particularly memorable 'gotcha':

I was hammering down the M5 in my green Omega Elite en route to Cornwall in 2005. I was doing close to 120mph, when all of a sudden I notice the blues and twos flashing away behind me. Moving into the middle lane and reducing my speed, I wait for the cop car to fly past, but - yup, you guessed it - he was pulling me over. "Yeah, those undercover traffic police cars can be difficult to detect," said my sister after the event. "Erm, it was a proper jam sandwich and had been following me for seven miles!" I replied. I didn't notice the car in question thanks to the Omega's rear privacy blind doing its job so well! Oops.

A short while later, I'm sitting in the back of a police car on the hard shoulder. "Do you know why I pulled you over?" I'm asked. "Is it because I was sat in the outside lane for too long?" I reply, feigning ignorance. "I came onto the motorway via the slip road a few miles back and I saw you fly past at speed. Look, it's all here on film," explains the rozzer. Sure enough, I am then shown video footage of my exploits. I'm already driving around with six points on my license, but on this occasion, another slap on the wrists seems unlikely. Surely I'm gonna get an instant ban? Not so...

"We can deal with this one of two ways: your recorded speed will qualify you for a ban irrespective of your existing endorsements, or, if you're feeling lucky, we can look at your average speed over the time that I spent following you and I can use that as the recorded speed. Which is it to be?" I am asked.

It was like being on a game show. "You can go home with your winnings, or you can gamble it all for today's star prize. What's it gonna be?!" "I'm gonna gamble," I say. The roars of approval from the studio audience are notable by their absence.

A quick calculation sees 99mph registered as my average speed during the time that I'd been tailed. I'm told that this is 1mph short of a ban. Instead, I'm facing (another) three points and a sixty quid fine. Thanuverymush, on your way, don't do it again etc. I hop back into the Omega, somewhat relieved, and continue my journey. A mile or so later I notice the plod squad still behind me. I look down, I'm doing 90mph. Oh dear. I slow down to 70mph, I lose Smokey at the next slip road.

Moral of the story: Omegas are deceptively quick. You should buy one.

[Mikebmth]

Hampshire Police are just a nightmare, I got done for 33.2 on the Avenue in Southampton and even the photo showed I was the only vehicle on the 3 lane road at the time and in my works van.

Got offered the speed awareness course but they then wanted me to drive to Basingstoke to do it when I live in Bournemouth so accepted the points and £80 fine, then the accident in January which despite mitigating circumstances I got put on a driver improvement course which btw was £300!!! That's on top of rebuilding the car and my shattered nerves!!!

I know all the hot spots now and stupidly know one of the local cops pretty well so when they get a new unmarked car I usually know about it as tbh I don't hang around, born with a concrete right foot I think and 100mph is normal on the M27 & M3 frequently

[Lowrider Dave]

Entertaining story Dan!
The letter I got was a Notice of Intended prosecution and required me to state if I was driving it at the time as the vehicle had committed the offence of speeding - 35 in a 30 area.
As well as confirming/denying I was the driver at the time, I also had the option of ticking the box to indicate I was willing to be considered for Driver Awareness Training. No mention of points or fines have been given at this stage.
I only has 28 days to reply to the letter, but with me being away for 23 days in NZ I didn't know until I got back! I filled the form and sent it off yesterday hoping that it gets to the office in time to avoid being dragged to the Magistrates Court for 'Failing to give information Contrary to Section 172 Road Traffic Act 1988.
The Driver Awareness Training costs £90 for the privilege of being talked at for 4 hours.

[Cavalier342]

Did you tell them that you were on holiday for the stated time? I'm sure if you have a valid reason, they can consider it.

[humbucker]

A fella I used to work with applied for some 'guaranteed avoidance of speeding tickets' thing from a legal firm that was claimed to exploit loopholes in the law that meant you would be able to avoid points or a fine if caught speeding. This is the interesting info that he received:

(nb. I post this as an interesting addition to the conversation we're having. Neither myself or the Mk3 Cavalier Owners Club are recommending that members follow this advice, and we cannot be held responsible for any outcome experienced as a consequence of acting in accordance with the info outlined below. That said, if you manage to avoid a hefty fine, thje gift of cake is most welcome!)

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TOP TIP #1
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A LITTLE KNOWN FACT

You are *MUCH* more likely to get 'let off' if you are pulled over for speeding
by a NORMAL Police officer (black hat, black uniform) than by a TRAFFIC officer
(white hat, green overcoat).

It's a traffic officer's JOB to catch you, where as it can be an inconvenience
for a normal Police officer to actually go through with prosecuting you. Also, it
is highly unlikely that a normal officer (as apposed to a Traffic officer) will
be able to make a case against you if you are armed with the information in this
course.

If a Traffic officer has evidence against you (note: not necessarily ENOUGH
evidence for a conviction), then they will attempt to fine / prosecute you. The
situation with an ordinary Police officer is less clear cut. Often, if you are
particularly courteous and try to strike up a friendly banter with a Normal
officer, they will give you a 'slap on the wrist' and send you on your way.

It is extremely important to remember to distinguish between the two types so
that you are able to plan your attack. If you are pulled by a Traffic officer,
then do not concede anything otherwise this evidence will be recorded and damning.

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Top Tip # 2
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AN EVEN LESSER KNOWN FACT

All speed pacing police cars have to have their speedos measured and certified.
Typically, ONLY traffic police cars are calibrated, and the speedo will have
increments of 1 mph. If you are stopped by a NON-traffic officer, and told that
he/she followed you, and you were speeding, simply ask as a matter of course when
his speedo was last calibrated. *It is likely he will let you go* when you ask
this question since normal police (beat) cars do not have certified speedos;
theirs is likely to be the same as yours!

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Top Tip # 3
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DON'T BE BULLIED IN TO SIGNING THE DECLARATION

Not enough people who are ‘caught' for speeding fight it in court, they simply accept it, get the points and pay the fine. If more than 10% fought the ticket, the judicial system dealing with this would be overwhelmed and brought down on its knees.

If in doubt, fight it! The worst thing that can happen is that you will be convicted of the original offence. You CAN get a heftier fine and more points in court, but unless you were doing silly speeds, it's very unlikely.

The first point to make is if you receive a ticket in the post, *DO NOT SIGN THE DECLARATION* because this is viewed as an admission of guilt. Rather, send the forms back with a signed covering letter. You should explain that none of the options presented on the form apply to you and you are therefore unable to sign it.

An excuse which has worked for many is to say that you have no idea who was driving the car – you are just sure it wasn't you because <insert reason>. It could have been any one of several friends or family members. Request the police send a photograph of the driver so that you can identify them to assist them with their enquiry.

They will most likely send a picture of the car from behind, unless you were caught on a Truvelo camera (a great way to protect against Truvelo's is by using PhotoBlocker spray, which doesn't allow static cameras to photograph your number plate! See this link www.beatthespeedtrap.co.uk/photoblocker.html).

The Police will demand that you sign the form, but do not back down – politely explain why you can not sign the form (because none of the options available to sign apply to you). They will continue to demand that you sign, but legally, you have no obligation to do so – so don't!

Try to avoid being too sarcastic or pompous in your communications in case it does go to court (please be aware that it is likely to actually go to court but you are extremely likely to win the case). You will want the court to recognise that you are sincere and reasonable. They will throw the case out if the Police can not PROVE you were driving.

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Top Tip # 4
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THE BEST LOOPHOLE

When you are being reported for speeding, the Police Officer must tell you that:

“You will be reported for consideration of the question of prosecuting you for exceeding the speed limit."

It must either be given:

> verbally
> in writing at the time
> in writing within fourteen days (or a summons be issued within fourteen days)

Following this Notice of Intended Prosecution (NIP), he should then caution you by saying:

"You do not have to say anything, but it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned, something you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence."

Under Section 1 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act, 1988, section 1, it states:

"A person shall not be convicted of an offence to which this section applies," (speeding, dangerous driving, careless driving, failing to conform to traffic lights, failing to conform to stop signs, continuous white lines in the middle of the road and other mandatory road signs) "unless the Notice of Intended Prosecution was given”.

When being booked for speeding or any other offence, if possible switch on a tape recorder or dictaphone so that you have a record of what the officer says. Be careful, some Police forces do have the N.I.P. printed on the HO/RT/1 producer form or on specially printed forms for speeding offences.

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Top Tip # 5
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KEEP HOLD OF YOUR LICENCE

NEVER surrender your licence at the roadside, you will get a chance to take it to a police station at a later date. Although the latter option is a pain, surrendering you licence at the roadside is seen as an admission of guilt. This is obviously ridiculous, but true nonetheless.

By surrendering it at a police station later you will be seen to be just abiding by the law.

Not surrendering by the side of the road is very unlikely to prevent you from getting a ticket, but you can tell the judge at trial that you were not speeding and you checked the speedometer. It is important to make this clear at the scene so that you can have the officer confirm the statement in your cross examination of him.

This will serve to make your case much stronger. Consistency in what you say is key, so it's best to work out your story first. Of course, we do not recommend lying!

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Top Tip # 6
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GET OUT OF MOBILE SPEED TRAPS

If you are caught on a Radar gun, be sure to ask to have a look at the radar gun and check that the gun displays the speed that you were stopped for.

If it does not, of course, they have no case. Admittedly, this is a long shot but we have heard of cases where the reading has not actually registered on the gun, so I would be amiss not to mention it

Next, get the make, model and serial number of the radar gun. Ask the officer to demonstrate that the radar gun is calibrated (he will probably not do this).

If he refused to demonstrate, then it is reasonable to assume it is not calibrated. This is extremely powerful evidence. Any court will not regard self-diagnostics as accurate. Radar guns are calibrated with a pair of tuning forks, and ONLY this external test may be considered accurate.

If the officer refuses to demonstrate the calibration, ask him to prove that he has tuning forks in the car. He will probably not be too happy at this point, but do not let this deter you! He can't object, your requests are absolutely legitimate. If he doesn't, tell the judge (if it goes to court) because this suggests that that the gun is not calibrated. In this instance you will most likely be 'let off'.

If you were caught on a LIDAR (laser) gun, ask to have a look at the gun and check that it displays the speed that you were stopped for. Again, get the make, model and serial number of the laser unit and log these details.

Note the positioning of the unit in relation to the sun or any other bright red or white light. LIDAR uses infrared light and does not work as well when aimed into infrared light sources like the sun or high beam headlights. Ask when the unit was last calibrated. Ask to see a demonstration of the calibration. LIDAR guns are not tuned by forks (it is not public knowledge how they are calibrated).

Again, you should note the officer's responses to these requests for reference if it goes to court.

There are products on the market that are designed to automatically open your garage door using laser technology. A side effect of such devices is that they deflect laser signals from Police guns. They are known as 'Laser Jammers' or 'Laser Scramblers' and although we do not stock them, we can certainly get them for you.

It is NOT illegal to install such a device on your car, so long as you are using it for the purpose of opening your garage door automatically. If you would like to buy one for this purpose, just drop us an email or call and we can order you one in from our trade suppliers for delivery within 2 business days.

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Top Tip # 7
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ACT!

OK, I admit that this is an obvious one, but the fact is that most of our customers admit going on the defensive when they get pulled over by the police and I'm going to tell you why it's a bad idea...

However much you want to tell the police how they are a glorified parking attendant, you should avoid actually doing so.

If you really try to make the officer believe that you are GENUINELY remorseful, you might just get off (particularly if it is a normal 'Beat' Officer that you are talking to, as described in Tip #1). He will always have a cautionary tale of something gruesome that just happens to have occurred right next to where you are. They make these lectures often. They want to feel that by telling you they can 'make a difference'.

You should come across as being annoyed with yourself. Also, make sure you stop the very instant you know you are being pulled over... be on the pavement looking seriously glum. If your licence already has points on it, you are going to need talent Go with the super-miserable, "Oh god, I of all people should know better by now," if you can raise a Hollywood tear you are Oscar material…!

I was talking to a friend of mine the other day who is a good looking girl. She told me how she had been pulled over a couple of weeks ago and by flirting with the officer, she was able to avoid having it taken any further, even though they had a speed reading on her.

Now, I agree with what you are probably thinking -- that is totally unprofessional and un-meritocratic ...but if you can pull it off, it's better than having to fight it the hard way!

Now I know that tip was a bit non-specific, so here's the next...

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Top Tip # 8
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LOG EVIDENCE FOR LATER USE

YOU MUST MAKE NOTES AT THE SCENE. The officer certainly will. In court you may be asked if the notes were made while the events were still fresh in your mind. If you are using the notes as evidence, then the answer must be “yes”.

You should note the following:

>> The answers to any questions you asked the officer (See Tip #6)

>> Positions of OTHER CARS. You may be able to claim that he/she metered someone else, but stopped you (particularly if you were close to a lorry or large van, since radar is good at locking into a larger object)

>> The weather conditions

>> The time and date

>> Your direction of travel and the source and destination

>> The lane you were in and the name of the road, also the area

>> The officer's direction of travel and lane, or note if he was parked

>> A brief physical description of the officer so you recognise him in court (take a PHOTO if possible)

>> Take the officer's number, and the unit number on his car

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Top Tip # 9
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PREPARE FOR THE TRIAL

The police MUST send you a notice of intended prosecution within 14 days. If they do not, the case is null-and-void. In preparing for trial, examine the ticket. Look for mistakes on the ticket such as a wrong name, time, date, or location. If there are any, you should tell the magistrate because this is an easy way out if you are lucky.

However, assuming that you are not that lucky, here is what you should do...

Gather evidence -- you should write to the police and ask for the following items:

(*Send all correspondence by recorded delivery and keep the receipts*)

>> A Full copy of the Instruction manual for the RADAR/LIDAR device used

>> A copy (both sides) of the calibration certificate

>> Details of the training (copy of certificate if there is one) given to the officer in the use of the PARTICULAR device

If these are not forthcoming tell the magistrate, and the case against you will be seriously compromised. I'll say again: keep copies of your written requests and the postage certificates.

We also recommend that you return to the scene and take pictures of the area, including any signs, which indicate the law. Make sure that your pictures are clear. DO NOT use a digital camera because it's not admissible.

The above comments are made on the assumption that you have been caught by a mobile unit. If this is not the case and you are defending a fine from a static camera such as a Gatso, your argument can be more straightforward; basically, if the Police cannot PROVE you were driving, then there is no case. So long as you have requested the photographs and they do not identify you as the driver, just play it cool, be respectful to the court and you should not have a problem.

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Top Tip # 10
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IN COURT...

The prosecution may ask for an adjournment because the officer cannot appear on the trial date that was set.

If possible DO NOT agree to this, tell the judge that you had to take a day off work to appear or something (try not to lie). Make note of any irregularities in the procedure in your statement to the judge.

Irregularities include things such as:

> the wrong ticket number printed on the notice

> a silly reason for requesting adjournment (such as a planned holiday, which the police should have known about before setting the date),

> receipt of the adjournment notice too close to the trial date. It is possible that if you protest the adjournment, it will be denied. If that happens, the charges should be dropped since you can't have a case without the officer's presence.

Check in with the prosecutor and usher and make sure you are on the case list, and that they are aware that you have appeared for trial. This is just to make your presence known, and hope that they may offer a plea bargain at this point, which you could consider.

If the officer doesn't appear, the charges should be dropped. This is where it is handy to reference the physical description you should have taken at the scene. If the officer does appear, ask him to withdraw the charge. He won't likely do that, although it has been known to happen when there really is no evidence and it's clear that the prosecution will lose.

DO NOT indicate your strategy to him, or show him any notes or pictures. Keep this stuff in an envelope or briefcase so that it is out of view prior to the actual trial.

In court, *ask the officer questions about the day to establish whether he really remembers the incident and you*. If he doesn't seem to, ask him directly whether he really remembers what happened that day. Destroying the officer's credibility is an excellent way to get acquitted.

Note: Do not come across as 'cocky' when asking these questions as this will put you out of favour with the court.

Ask about the radar or lidar equipment. If the officer refused to demonstrate the calibration at the roadside, ask why and demand to know if the unit was truly calibrated. Each situation is different, but you should be able to use your notes to develop a strategy that insinuates that the equipment used to clock your speed was not accurate -- or at least that there is reasonable doubt that it was accurate. If you achieve this you will be acquitted.

Ask the officer about the laws in the area. This includes turn controls, signalling devices, speed limits, and so on. If he doesn't get it right, use your pictures of the area to prove that he is wrong. Showing that the officer does not understand the laws in effect in the area is another good way to reduce his credibility as a witness against you.

If all goes well, you may make the officer lose his cool and throw a wobbly. This will drop his credibility, vastly strengthening your case.

Do not underestimate the impression of a haircut, and nice suit and tie at the trial. You will look more innocent in this type of dress, and your chance of acquittal or fine reduction will be improved. You must also be courteous to the judge and officers of the court. If you irritate the judge, you will be convicted regardless of the evidence.

This may just seem like common sense but it is important to realise that even if there is no solid evidence against YOU (i.e. there is only evidence against a car which happens to have your registered number plate attached), the people involved in deciding the outcome of the case are human and if they feel that you are being dis-respectful to their system, then this will be reflected in their verdict.

It's really a pain, and a far less stressful way to avoid tickets is to do just that – *AVOID* getting them in the first place. A good way of doing this is to use either a Radar and Laser detector, which alerts you to both mobile and static speed traps or a GPS based system like the Road Angel, which has the known locations in it's database.

Finally, cameras installed during motorway repairs and a lowered speed limit should always be challenged. To legally lower the speed of a road, the change must bepassed through parliament. A lower speed on motorways due to construction is meant as a guideline, not a law.

[humbucker]

Apparently, adverts for this info were promptly banned following complaints to the advertising standards watchdog:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media ... 93833.html

[Lowrider Dave]

Letter from 'Summary Justice Unit' today, giving me three options.

1. Complete a National Driver Offender Retraining Scheme for £90 at a choice of locations.
2. Fixed penalty fine of £100 and 3 points on licence.
3. Have case heard in court.

I have opted for retraining.