Stylistics

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Telegram Sam
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Stylistics

Post by Telegram Sam »

On the way home from work if I go one way I pass by the main GM Vauxhall Newcastle distributor. Large place with goodness knows how many of the latest models prominently on display. Turning the other way takes me past the Renault-Nissan (tie-up?) distributor with an even longer stream of cars in various states of undress in forced view as you drive past.

Looking at the former I find it (very) difficult to work up any enthusiasm over what must nowadays count as the trendy Euro styling of cars as represented by Insignias and Astras and Mondeos and things. Going the other way is however much worse. If I am stuck in a queue in front of the Nissans - often happens - I think to myself that to a man they look downright - ugly. I would consciously try to avoid purchasing one of them if aesthetics was the only consideration, which of course it isn't. No disrespect to the Japanese on whom much of the welfare of Sunderland depends, but they just don't seem to have got the message as far as European styling (whatever that is. BMW is one of the better examples) is concerned. If I get some polish on my Mk3 SRi (this does happen sometimes) it outshines the lot! I deny absolutely any iota of bias.
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Re: Stylistics

Post by humbucker »

IMHO, the GTC VXR is stunning, as is the R35 GT-R. Every manufacturer has good and bad examples of styling, but these cars are superb.

As for your point about BMW, I have to disagree with you. They've produced some stunning designs, but a lot of their cars are very 'meh' of late.

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Re: Stylistics

Post by Telegram Sam »

I agree with you about the white one and obviously tastes are subjective. My point tried to be that on the one hand the more popular cars these days all seem to have been passed through some Brussels styling harmonisation plant, which makes them hard to distinguish from each other at a glance. BMW's are still distinctive whether or not they appeal individually. Whilst the Nissan-Renaults are really turn-offs. Contrast that to when Mk3's and even more so their predecessors first saw the light of day, difficult to talk of "progress". All IMHO of course.
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Re: Stylistics

Post by Robsey »

I thought that this was a 1970's music thread when I saw the title...
Hmm for you younger ones, ask your parents.

As said - many manufacturers have made some dogs..
Nissan Juke, early Fiat Multipla,
the latest incarnation of the Toyota Aygo, VW Up, Toyota IQ, Vauxhall Agila and Adam, The latest Ford Ka.

Times and taste's change - I used to love the late 70's / early 80's wedge cars like the TR7, BMW 8 series and the Aston Martin Lagonda.

I still like the TR7 and BMW 8 series but the Lagonda now looks vile albeit a bit quirky.

Not much modern stuff appeals to me these days.
Maybe the BMW i8... although my opinion of BMW's and Audi's is often tarnished severely by the many jug-heads that you regularly see driving them.

From what I see on the roads these days, general popularity falls on the pocket eco-rockets, such as Yaris, Pug 107 and so on.

The Yaris I had was butt ugly inside and out, but a total joy to drive. One of only two cars I can say that I miss driving. The other was a 1980 Corolla mk2. (Standard early 80's boxy shape same as Fiat (Super) Mirafiori, Lada Riva, Datsun Sunny, FSO Polonez....)

It would be nice if manufacturers could achieve a good looking and enjoyable car to drive.
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Re: Stylistics

Post by humbucker »

I think the consensus is that we preferred cars when they were designed with rulers :P
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Re: Stylistics

Post by Telegram Sam »

There must be something in ruler-design if I've been approached on several occasions (Sainsbury petrol stations) with complimentary comments and the occasional spontaneous offer to purchase.
The Yaris I had was ... a total joy to drive. One of only two cars I can say that I miss driving. The other was a 1980 Corolla mk2
Really surprising. Tell us more ...
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Re: Stylistics

Post by Robsey »

We are probably drifting way off topic.
I can probably say that until I met the wife, form over function was never what mattered. She is the one that got me into Vauxhalls.

Other than our two Cavaliers, looks have never featured. (1987 mk2 saloon in white, and our current long serving mk3 hatch in blue)

My first car, was a 1980 Corolla mk2 1300 Saloon. DX trim level in Sahara beige paint and a brown slide-back sunroof.
For the numbers people, the body was a KE70 and the engine was a 4K unit.

Being my first ever car, it was the one I learnt everything about cars on. Doing my first engine and front end rebuild after crashing it within three weeks of buying it.

For that reason it will always hold a special place for me - sadly there are less than 45 left in the UK and I think almost all are on SORN. So I would love to have one again, but alas they are rarer than the number of times that I washed my Cavalier.

Probably due to age, I have only ever suffered back ache in Vauxhalls.

The Mk1, phase 1 2002 1.3 litre Yaris that I had for two months was soooo much comfier than any of the cars that I have driven over the past ten years.

My long Tuesday round trips were always pleasant and I never felt tired at the end of the day.

It was only domestic politics that caused me to sell it in the end to Envoy CDX.
That and the fact that my Cav was due back home from the paintshop and Gary's car was due to die at any time.

I couldn't really afford to tax, mot and insure 3 cars.
(Forget the tax bit - the Cav is still on SORN and the Vectra is on disability exemption.)

And just to return to the original topic title.


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Re: Stylistics

Post by humbucker »

rarer than the number of times that I washed my Cavalier
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Stylistics

Post by James McGrath »

I must admit that it takes something special to get my attention.
Most modern hatches, MPVs and SUVs are as ugly as sin and frankly I don't understand why crossovers even exist, but that's another discussion altogether.

I do however like quite a few modern spots and saloon cars.

I think BMW have done a great job of the latest 3 and 4 series (F30 and F32) which I think is the best looking since the E36.
The latest Jaguar XE and VW Passat are pretty good looking too.

A real problem is the engines these days. Due to emissions laws it's impossible to find a naturally aspirated petrol engine above 1.8 any more.
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Re: Stylistics

Post by Telegram Sam »

Think of it as you drive around: If they removed the badges from all the cars on the road you would be hard pressed these days to distinguish many from each other or identify what the marque is. With a few honourable exceptions, those I suspect without Japanese connections.
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Re: Stylistics

Post by Robsey »

James McGrath wrote: A real problem is the engines these days. Due to emissions laws it's impossible to find a naturally aspirated petrol engine above 1.8 any more.
Almost all engine sizes are being given the turbo treatment.
There are plenty of adverts for a 1 litre turbo Hyundai i20 or i10..(not sure which).

Do also take into account of modern engine design and control.

Using my own engines as an example.

1983 VW 1.9 flat four wasser-boxer (DF) engine kicked out a piddly 55 bhp.

1994 1.8 Cavalier C18NZ kicks out 89 bhp

1998 1.4 Corsa 16 valve engine kicks out 90 bhp (okay, I never had a Corsa).

2002 1.3 Yaris 16 valve engine kicks out 90 bhp

So you see smaller more efficient engines with bags more oomph.
(More bang for your buck!!)
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Re: Stylistics

Post by Telegram Sam »

James McGrath wrote:
A real problem is the engines these days. Due to emissions laws it's impossible to find a naturally aspirated petrol engine above 1.8 any more.
I suppose that within General Chat within the Lounge one is permitted to wander off topic without getting shot.

According to my long-standing garage the point was reached a few years ago where it became no longer economic for most folk to opt for a modern diesel rather than petrol in view of the increasing costs of environmental compliance. Coupled with the increasing cost of replacing complicated integrated components when only a part fails. Couple this with the increasing efficiency of not even the latest [turbo] petrol engines and you have a system reset compared with the past. Where I am unclear is in understanding if you are saying that turbo petrols are environmentally preferable / more economic compared with non-turbo petrols greater than 1.8L???
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Re: Stylistics

Post by Robsey »

Hmm- indeed we have drifted from beauty and form of the body - shell,
And now plunged conversation to the hidden depths of the power plant within.

There is a huge compromise in all cars.

Aesthetic design -
Changes to body shells to accommodate safety to occupants (wndscreen angle) and safety to others (collision protection for other vehicles and pedestrians etc).

Then as you correctly point out, everyone uses some for of CAD (computer aided design) to improve air flow, reduce drag and generally add swage lines and swirls for beauty or body strength.

Note also that many car designers have probably migrated between manufacturers.

And finally many manufacturers collaborate..or pool their resources.

Ford own Volvo, Land Rover and Jaguar.

GM own Vauxhall, Opel, Chevrolet, Cadillac, Saab, Holden and Daewoo which got absorbed into Chevrolet.
Not forgetting strong links between the Suzuki Wagon R and the Agila... or the strong links with Isuzu in the 90's.
(Trooper, Frontera and Monteray)

What I am saying is that all cars look the same because they are effectively made by only three or four huge manufacturer families.

Engine wise - it is good that smaller engines are more powerful...
But at the expense of pushing ease of maintence out of the DIY sector.
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Re: Stylistics

Post by James McGrath »

Remember the Cavalier was one of the first cars to be designed using CAD.
In fact you could argue that cars started to look the same a long lime ago.
Ford mondeos, Nissan primeras and Honda accords from the early 90's all share very similar lines.

The pursuit of better aerodynamics is probably one of the biggest culprits. If all manufactures are working towards the same goal then inevitably they will produce similar products.

Diverting slightly back to engines. Last point I promise. The problem I have with the move towards smaller turbo petrol engines is their lack of low end torque.
16 valves, variable valve timing and turbos are all great for maximum power which looks great on paper but when you are driving around below 3000 rpm (which is probably about 90% of the time) they lack power compared to engines with a higher displacement even if they have a higher rated maximum power output.
I bet that 1.3 Yaris with 90hp develops far less power at 2000 rpm than the c18nz with 89bhp.
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Re: Stylistics

Post by Telegram Sam »

[this is really branching off topic ..]

This takes me back to my current conversation with the Automark specialists who are responsible for rebuilding my 20SEH. They inherited a "Stage 1" cam but he has always maintained that a milder cam (possibly not the bog standard) would give me improvements in the areas you have referred for very little loss at the top end. That's a 2 litre which seems to be comfortable at the top end. I could imagine that if one commissioned some statistical research you might find that folk who depend on +/- 1 litre cars tend to use higher revs, like for like, than those with 2 L or more to spare. Something for some academic to get his teeth into.
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