SRi restoration project

[humbucker]

I still maintain that it would be unreasonable to expect the layman to wade through these, after the job, and then in effect identify what was missing in order to conflict with the description "full restoration" and account for the state that it is now in.

You put "full restoration" in quote marks. Are we to suppose that this is what is listed on the invoice/quotation? I have to say, a lot of what is being said here sounds as though it is open to interpretation.

and could I suppose paste up what it says

This would be most helpful

[Telegram Sam]

To point one: Yes

Point 2: There's quite a lot of things listed but these may become sub jud .. But when amongst these you read for example... strip out interior and door shells, repair and paint as needed ... any reasonable person is entitled to believe that restoration means restoration. If there are specific areas which the restorer neglects for one reason or another then he must surely point these out rather than hoodwink the little old lady with the cheque book. If that's what's meant by interpretation then so be it.

[Telegram Sam]

I can remember getting bogged down with DVLA re procedures and regs that apply when re-shelling. Not a topic for the faint-hearted.
Another point: If I "transfer" an N-reg shell to my H-reg SRi (monocoque) then according to one interpretation it becomes an N-reg vehicle. If it's N-reg then it's subject to N-reg MOT rules on emissions and such like, and these would require a cat conv in order to pass. But if you fit a cat onto a non-cat 20SEH motor you are asking for trouble. Catch 22 ??? I can't imagine that this is the first time in recent automobile history that this conundrum has arisen and that nobody has come up with a way round it.

[humbucker]

I could be wrong, and I am in no way advocating such behaviour, but I believe the common remedy is to "not tell the DVLA what you're doing."

[Telegram Sam]

I've a vague unsubstantiated feeling that that is but one step further from the Robsey solution which might have been something along the lines of: Tell them everything and if that leads to nowhere then drive blindly on. But the MOT man might not play ball in which case I am no further on.

[James McGrath]

I believe the emissions section of the MOT is dependant on when the engine was manufactured not the chassis.

I know of lost of people who have done engine swaps (Putting and older engine into a newer car) and no longer had to pass emissions tests.

[Telegram Sam]

That could be crucial since there are obviously differences of views over this even among the restoration community. Due not least to the fudge put out by the DVLA. I'll have to get my facts sorted out so if anyone can talk from factual experience and say how / how not to go about it, when confronted with "opposition", then I'm all ears.

[Robsey]

I concur with James.

Fitting an older engine to a newer car should subject the completed vehicle to the emissions regulations for the engine specification.

And to confirm that in my case, the engine was still a post-1992 unit and therefore still subject to cat fitment and associated emissions levels.
And I had "made every possible effort" to work with the DVLA via email regarding the engine swap details.
And it was my local DVLA office (Close to the Manchester United football ground) who chose not to entertain the conversion.

Despite this, I do declare the true engine size to the MOT tester and the insurance companies.

[Telegram Sam]

There's hope yet ...

So you kept the original chassis number which was linked to your reg no but "persuaded" the MOT man to go by the engine spec? Was much "persuasion" required? I could imagine some not playing ball unless some form of proof or authority or what have you was provided.

Did you have a (free) choice of Reg Numbers?

I can remember wading through the DVLA help notes about re-shelling and coming to the conclusion that none of the scenarios corresponded to mine. Though one would have to consult a QC or rocket scientist to be sure.

[Robsey]

No persuasion required.

I have known Dave my MOT man longer than I have had the Cavalier.
So we have a mutual appreciation for each other's vehicle knowledge, experience and anecdotes.

I would say he is thorough but fair.
I once failed an MOT on a defective rear fog tell tale.

I never changed the reg number, as I only swapped the engine and ECU loom.


But my thought is -
play by the rules, and
Keep a written record of everything that you do and all outcomes from other parties.

[Telegram Sam]

As I understand it the chassis VIN number is linked to the vehicle reg no. That would mean that I can't keep the original H-reg and still play by the rules? If not then that would mean persuading the MOT man to go by H-reg emission rules for the motor but N-reg rules for the rest. I can see myself not being terribly popular.

[Robsey]

The main differences between "H" and "N" reg rules will be the emissions.

Most other rule changes are not year of manufacture specific.
Such as loose or unidentified wiring, or corrosion within 30cm of a tow bar assembly.

Both are recent rule changes but still affect all cars that are subject to an MOT.

It is usually items that were fitted as a factory standard for that model year that cause MOT anomolies.

Examples being: -
Front Seat Belts only being testable on vehicle from about 1987 onwards.

Rear fog lights or reversing lights after a certain date in the late 70's / early 80's.
And so on.

[Telegram Sam]

So hopefully the only problem will be, if I am obliged to turn up with an N-reg vehicle, to get the MOT man to go by H-reg emission rules. Or preferably find a way to retain the H-reg reg.

Either way there is going to be a conflict with the mileage shown on the speedo! I could be had up for clocking ...

[ilovedmymantas]

All good advice above....

As I understand it the chassis VIN number is linked to the vehicle reg no. That would mean that I can't keep the original H-reg and still play by the rules?

That's right therefore from another point of view you don't transfer an existing shell, you transfer things to a newer car from your donor car, in your case the H reg.
Your emissions should be based on the engine type and year of manufacture, from engine number, as detailed in V5C.
Although I've only changed like for like engines the process was the same. change engine & speedo ( I'd rather know how many miles the engine's done, better for belt changes etc. , than knowing how far the bodywork's travelled ! ) then notify DVLA of new engine number to change it on the logbook. With this the mot tester will know the appropriate test to do.
Email is open to what I call "digital denial"- we never got it. I use good old recorded delivery for peace of mind.
The last time I did this I notified the insurance company who requested a report from a garage to say the engine was as described and had been fitted correctly. Luckily my nearest one ( who I had never used ) supplied one free.
This was never a problem with insurance companies after that initial request
Are you changing the N reg bodywork to pre-facelift i.e. old style bonnet & bumpers/strips etc. ? If you're changing everything over ( I like that idea ) then I think you'll be presenting an N reg. pre-facelift sri replica to your mot tester and the insurance company.
That seems like a nice compromise to me. The car with engine you want, bar registration number but with a newer body.
Take off your old plates and use them for show days and polishing days pictures

[Telegram Sam]

Simplification in a sense: spoke to my MOT garage this morning. With a minimum of persuasion they agreed that if I presented them with an N-reg chassis containing an H-reg motor, they would test emissions according to the rules for the H-reg. Hopefully that was therefore a false alarm.

When I mentioned my intentions to Adrian Flux previously they seemed to be reasonably laid back about it. Full insurance disclosure is obviously the name of the game.

Whether I am transferring an N-reg shell into an H-reg car, or an H-reg motor etc into an N-reg shell, is one of these metaphysical topics that learned people write Ph.D.'s about ...

Are you changing the N reg bodywork to pre-facelift i.e. old style bonnet & bumpers/strips etc. ? If you're changing everything over ( I like that idea ) then I think you'll be presenting an N reg. pre-facelift sri replica to your mot tester and the insurance company.

Basically yes, keeping where possible / sensible as many of the original SRi parts and panels as feasible.

The problem will be to interpret (ignore???) the DVLA guidelines on such matters, which I couldn't get to "fit" my scenario, and hopefully find a way to retain the original registration no ("cherished" or not) and at all costs avoid the dreaded Q plates ... Any advice from whatever quarter gratefully received!

[Envoy CDX]

I don't understand how you could possibly get a q plate..
From the DVLA website (here)


11. Vehicle identification number

All vehicles registered in the UK must have a unique, stamped-in vehicle identification number (VIN) and registration number.
Find your VIN

The VIN is usually stamped into the chassis of the vehicle. It may be lost if you rebuild or modify your vehicle.
When you may need a new VIN or registration

If you have a kit car, rebuild, or radically altered vehicle, DVLA will usually have to assess it.

You may be able to keep its original registration number if you can prove the vehicle’s original VIN. If you can’t, you’ll have to apply for a replacement identity number.

DVLA will give you an authorisation letter to get the vehicle stamped with the new VIN if your vehicle passes its assessment.

You then need to register the vehicle - you can only do this when DVLA receives confirmation it’s been stamped with the correct VIN.

[Telegram Sam]

That's very interesting. The whole subject is a bit of a minefield if you consult all the various sources and I missed this one. I'll bookmark the quote for later use hopefully! I've got the original VIN.