SRi restoration project

[humbucker]

Allow me to be frank (who's he?!). This is bonkers. If you want a hatchback, then don't buy/ruin a perfectly good saloon shell at a cost of £1800+ only to end up with a patchwork car which is what you seem to think you already have. If you are that determined to reshell, then you should buy a low-mileage Cavalier hatchback and swap the bits between one and the other. I am beyond surprised that your metal man is even considering making a saloon into a hatchback. You're essentially buying another car, so just buy another car and swap the desirable bits between one and the other. What's a PFL SRi hatch worth, even in showroom condition? £3k? £4k to a collector? I'm being generous. What's a donor car gonna cost you? Nowhere near that.

That said, speak to Fintona in Northern Ireland. They had a dozen non IRS shells a couple of years back, each being sold for £300 (largely due to the fact that they were left out in the open for donkeys). They also had a brand new 4x4 shell that was in dry storage. I should have bought that when I had the chance. Bah! Anyway, my guess is that the shell on eBay is a Fintona buy.

If you are determined to save your car and invest in it regardless (and I don't think any of us here would think you are crazy for doing so if you're gonna do a proper job and keep the car for the long term), then forget about what's been done and what is being considered. Simply invest a grand of your money in a full media blast or acid dip of the shell. Of course, you'll need to strip the car down first, but these methods will enable you to see clearly what you've got to contend with. I will be having my Turbo media blasted in the coming couple of months, bare shell job. It's the only way to expose every last bit of corrosion that will need dealing with before spending money on paint and corrective work (the latter probably not taking care of everything that needs to be taken care of if not opting for a blast/dip).

Work out a budget and then decide what you can do yourself. If the answer is 'not a lot' then divide your budget up into chunks (expected costs for blast/dip, paint etc.), see what's left and determine whether or not that's enough to pay someone to do the strip and rebuild for you. Otherwise, I fear we'll be having the same conversation again in the not-too-distant future.

[James McGrath]

+1
Chopping up a perfectly good saloon shell is not the answer.

[Telegram Sam]

I'm already way beyond using "sensible" accounting standards to justify what I am doing. Cav-crazy is a better description.

I don't know where I would get hold of a "donor" car from for that kind of money where I could be confident that it was pretty well rust free and that I would not end up with a patchwork that would let me down in the longer term (which is the only way to look at the project in my mind). Apart from which I'd feel bad about stripping bits from a perfectly good car.

What you are advocating in your last but one para is pretty much what Bonello is proposing to do even if I haven't followed his plan in great detail (and therefore can't set it out here properly)

What is the market price for a good shell??? There must be so few being traded that it's a toss of a coin.

"Chopping up a perfectly good saloon shell is not the answer." I'd prefer to say "marrying up" if that's what results in a hybrid

[James McGrath]

Ok I'll try to convince you one last time and then I will say no more.

If you let this Bonello chap chop up bits of that shell and weld them onto your car you will end up with far more of a patchowork than you realise.
Yes the floor pan might look good but what of he rest of the chassis? That will still be rotten. If the underside is as bad as you say it is then the likelihood is that the rust has already settled in other places too.

The only way to completely stop all corrosion is to get it chemically dipped, end of story. If you're thinking of the long term it is the only solution.
It will only be a patchwork job if you take it to a really rubbish welder who can't fabricate for toffee.

Take it to a place like this:
http://www.surfaceprocessing.co.uk/index.html

[btcctroy]

Right for a start a hatch back cavalier floor is different to a saloon floor. The saloon floor is a lot longer and has no underside strengthener as its internal.
I would never consider welding in a saloon floor into a hatch. Its totally bonkers.
I have fabricated loads of repair sections which I have welded in to be a totally flush finish. I don't consider my work patch work!
You sure this Bonello is up to it.

[Super89]

Mk3 Cavalier Rust Buster..

Have you not seen his work Sam, Maybe worth the trip and buy a cheap run around while your car is been sorted?

[Lowrider Dave]

+2
Chopping up a perfectly good saloon shell is not the answer.

Waste of money. If you want a hatchback, buy a good hatchback, media blast it, do it right properly and then transfer parts.

[Telegram Sam]

Sometimes you get the feeling that you're fighting a losing battle. Options:
- Do nothing and face MOT failure
- Wait for good hatch shell to "appear", treat as necessary, then re-shell. Could be a long wait.
- Buy complete hatchback and hope that when stripped the inner / shell condition will turn out to be good enough for long term restoration. Could be risky. On the other hand counter-intuitive to spend mega-bucks on a top condition car only to strip it down.
- Media blast my own shell etc and set about patching all the parts. Long job.
It's a hard life.
Can I create a link to the pics on Photobucket so that those interested can see all 24 on demand rather than swap this thread with them?

[Telegram Sam]

Mk3 Cavalier Rust Buster..

Have you not seen his work Sam, Maybe worth the trip and buy a cheap run around while your car is been sorted?

Thankfully I do have alternative transport so this is an option!

[humbucker]

"Media blast my own shell etc and set about patching all the parts. Long job."

All of your options are long jobs. I'd argue that media blasting and repair followed by reassembly is probably the shortest, most cost-efficient and long-lasting of the lot based on the level of work you're talking about. If you have a second car and time to wait, then I wouldn't hesitate. This is what I will be doing to my Turbo. It is the only way to reveal whatever mess there is to contend with. And being a 20+-year-old Cavalier, I know I will be facing 'hidden' problems despite the car's low mileage.

[Telegram Sam]

I reckon media blasting + repairs will be on the agenda whatever agenda I follow.
Based on this forum's feedback I am now investigating an eBay SRi hatch "rolling shell"in Fife that looks externally like a complete car. Obviously not in as good nick as the Irish saloon shell but he's going to send me a series of pics of what's underneath. If this turns out to be better than mine then that should cut down the amount of welding (I hope).

[James McGrath]

I think you need to take a step back and accept that this is going to be a long process and you will have to take it off the road for a while at least.
When you start talking about donor cars and replacing shells then the line becomes blurred as to whether or not it's still the same car and if the car is of sentimental value to you then is that what you really want?

Don't despair, nothing is impossible, it just takes time.

-Do your research into chemical dipping and media blasting.
-Find a place near you that does it.
-Make sure you plan carefully for what you're doing. You'll need to arrange a trailer for transport and have space to store all the bits from your car once you strip it down.
-Find a good enthusiastic welder who will do repairs to the chassis once it's been striped or rust.
-Find a place that will paint the chassis for you, some chemical dipping companies, like the one I suggested above, will do this for you.
-Then reassemble all your bits back on the car and conduct any bodywork repairs you think are necessary.

it will take time, but be patient.
Your car will not dissolve into rust water overnight and there is no need to rush this.

[Telegram Sam]

James - I agree with all that you say.
Whatever impression I created, at this point in time I believe I will be relying on Bonello here to do all that - this seems to be very much his environment and he has some very nice examples of restored Alfas in his works to "prove" it. I can't unfortunately guarantee that I won't have another Boston experience, unless there is a forum section that deals with crystal balls.
[are sandblasting and acid dipping alternatives that do the same thing?]

[James McGrath]

[are sandblasting and acid dipping alternatives that do the same thing?]

Yes. they basically are two ways of achieving the same result.

With media blasting, something like sand or glass particles are sprayed onto the surface which physically strips off any rust or paint.

With a chemical dip, the entire chassis is submerged into an acid solution which dissolves all of the paint and rust leaving nothing but clean steel. This is basically the only way to totally rid the chassis of rust as the acid will get inside all of the box sections where you cant normally see.
After that the chassis is normally dipped again into a zinc primer or other solution to protect the steel.
If done well it will leave you with a chassis that is as rust resistant as a modern car.

[Telegram Sam]

Does that mean that - with the caveat that all traces of the acid have to be flushed out at the end of the process - the chemical dip is more effective than / to be preferred over the sand blasting?

[James McGrath]

Sand blasting is quicker and easier. It's better if, like Humbucker, you are prepping a surface for paint that is in good condition as it is difficult for the sand to get into all the nocks and crannies of a chassis.

I would say acid dipping is the one for you as it will take all the hidden rust away and leave you will a shell which you can easily repair. Any holes will be immediacy apparent and when repairs are conducted the wealds will be stronger as you will be welding clean meatal onto clean metal.

You don't have to worry about any acid being left behind, it will be all washed out as part of the process.

Well if you are confident in Bonello's abilities then I would say you have a welder to carry out the repairs once it's been acid dipped.

[Telegram Sam]

"You don't have to worry about any acid being left behind, it will be all washed out as part of the process."

I'm hoping that it is to his credit that he has picked up this potential loophole - in the sense of having experienced situations where the washing out was not 100%

Zinc priming < > galvanizing for the uninitiated??

[humbucker]

"You don't have to worry about any acid being left behind, it will be all washed out as part of the process."

I do not know anyone who has had this process done who has not suffered from bubbling paint after a few months. As James says, acid dipping gets everywhere, including the bits you can't see, which makes it difficult to rid the shell of acid and treat those hidden parts to protection - even with the processor's promise of a protective dip after an acid bath. This is the major downside of acid dipping, and why I am choosing media (glass) blasting, although you need to get someone who knows what they're doing with blasting too - you can easily warp panels and bodywork when firing glass at 'em at high pressure.

Both processes should end up with a car covered in a protective zinc coating and any rot exposed ready for you to deal with.

[Telegram Sam]

Tks for putting the pro's and con's - even if this makes it more difficult to decide! I think Bonello does / has done both so it could be him putting his reputation on the line that decides it in the end.

" it will leave you with a chassis that is as rust resistant as a modern car". I thought modern cars were galvanized?

[James McGrath]

" it will leave you with a chassis that is as rust resistant as a modern car". I thought modern cars were galvanized?

It all depends on the coating you choose after you've had it repaired.
There is no reason why you cant get it zinc primed. Galvanization is basically applying a layer of zinc anyway.

[humbucker]

"Bonello does/both"

I doubt that. He might farm the work out to Envirodip or Surface Processing, but unless he has a big factory with multiple acid baths and a long production line, then I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

Pros and cons are basically:

Acid dip: can result in acid/cleaning residue left that will eat into new paint, most people experience this, touch up paint when problem arises
Media blast: can warp panels, can leave dust that is a pain to remove

Both cost about the same, although you can buy environmentally-sound soda blasting DIY kits to do the job yourself.


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[Lowrider Dave]

They are several different 'media' that can be used for blasting - a recent one are small plastic pellets, works like the sand blasting but less likely to warp the panels if the operator is less than attentive.

Just a word about the Fife rolling shell, I discovered that Scottish cars do suffer from their 'inclement' weather and the salt in the air if it's anywhere near the coast, which Fife is...well, technically its a region but you get the idea...just a warning.

[Telegram Sam]

"Bonello does both" - my misreporting. He has used both treatments, farmed out to the respective specialists

In view of the importance of flushing out every last relic of acid, can anyone actually vouch for (or against) Envirodip or Surface Processing???

Alternatively which operator uses the plastic pellets, if anyone knows?

Still awaiting pics from Fife showing what the sea off Leven can do to metalwork. Of course the "shell" need not have spent all its life there but the cautionary principle is valid

Does there come a point where the Moderator closes down a thread cos it's become too much of a saga or ??

[humbucker]

Since you asked... search migweb for Keith Robinson's Nova build. He went to Surface Processing. Cost him a load of new body panels and a trip to Germany! Oh, and he had to deal with leftover acid residue.

As Dave says, the key is your media blaster being attentive .You don't need to find somebody who uses plastic pellets if the operator is doing his job properly. You should employ the services of Retropower. They are the UK's leading Opel and Vauxhall restoration outfit. Their work is extraordinary. They'll be blasting my Cavalier, but they can do full restorations if required. Many magazine feature cars roll out of their workshop.

[Telegram Sam]

Tks for the warning - I could see us going to SP without it. I don't know if the same reservations apply to Envirodip?

The problem is obviously to crystal ball "if the operator is doing his job properly" before it's too late. Sounds like contacting Retropower is on the agenda.