New old member cav sri redtop project

Show off your pride and joy! All Mk3 Cavaliers are welcome (please post only one thread per car)
d.lynch sri
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:48 pm
Location: Derry, n.Ireland

New old member cav sri redtop project

Post by d.lynch sri »

Havent been on this site in years wasnt sure it was still going. Always was mad about cavaliers but the last one i had was about 4 years ago and sold it to buy a carlton GSi 24v.

As much as I loved the carlton, it just wasnt the same as having a cav so i sold up and went on the hunt again.

I managed to find a 94 SRi ecotec saloon in white with 98k in donegal in ireland here and I must say the cars in very good nick, best one ive had anyway.

The only thing thats annoyed me so far is the engine. The car itself is an l-reg with all the early trim pinstripe interior, fanblade alloys and no panel on the bootlid. It had plastic badges on the bootlid but the man before me fitted the early stickers and SRi and 16v badges which I think looks how a cavalier should. So the only thing out of place is the ecowreck lol.

So before christmas i got a replacement redtop and and my mate started the conversion there on friday and things havent went as smoothly as I thought they would lol.

It was an early type engine with a flat flywheel so first of all my clutch wouldnt fit. I wanted to keep the flat flywheel but couldnt get a clutch until next weel so just got a late pot type flywheel and a good clutch and went ahead and got the engine fitted.

Now we cant seem to get any power to the car at all. Everything seems to be wired up as it should but nothings working. No headlights, dash lights, ignition, nothing! My mate whos doing it for me builds mk2 escorts and vauxhalls arent his thing so maybe weve missed something?

Hes connected the 3 plugs in the kick panel beside the ecu as the 3 sets of plugs wouldnt plug in.

Can anybody shed any light on any other wires that might need joined or maybe theres an earth has been left disconnected?

Any help would be greatly appreciated and its good to be back! Ill try to get some pictures shortly!
d.lynch sri
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:48 pm
Location: Derry, n.Ireland

Re: New old member cav sri redtop project

Post by d.lynch sri »

Image
d.lynch sri
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:48 pm
Location: Derry, n.Ireland

Re: New old member cav sri redtop project

Post by d.lynch sri »

Image

Image
d.lynch sri
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:48 pm
Location: Derry, n.Ireland

Re: New old member cav sri redtop project

Post by d.lynch sri »

Image
d.lynch sri
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:48 pm
Location: Derry, n.Ireland

Re: New old member cav sri redtop project

Post by d.lynch sri »

Image
d.lynch sri
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:48 pm
Location: Derry, n.Ireland

Re: New old member cav sri redtop project

Post by d.lynch sri »

Image
d.lynch sri
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:48 pm
Location: Derry, n.Ireland

Re: New old member cav sri redtop project

Post by d.lynch sri »

Image
User avatar
Robsey
Club Admin
Posts: 10568
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:42 pm
Location: East Manchester

Re: New old member cav sri redtop project

Post by Robsey »

There are three looms in the engine bay.

1 - Injector / ECU loom that runs in two branches.
A - There is a fat red wire (it may have a black outer sheath) which goes to the positive terminal of the battery.
B - There is also a black wire for the coil and provides ignition live to the ECU.
This goes to the round barrel shaped connector close to the battery.
C - There are several brown ground wires that bolt to the cam-cover housing.

The fuse for the injector loom is fuse number 11. The first fuse on the second row.

You will need the three plugs connecting, as they provide power to
Aa -the fuel pump (fat red/blue wire).
Bb - another plug provides signals to engine light and rev counter on the dash.
Cc - the third plug gives input to the air-con system.

2 - The second loom is the power loom for the starter motor, alternator and the gauge temperature sensor.

3 - The third loom is the front body loom for headlights, indicators, horn, radiator fan and so on.

I suspect it will be loom 1 that is causing your issue.

Also - is the ECU and loom configured for auto box (park / neutral inhibit switch) or manual?
On some ECU looms it can be set up by which pins are set to ground.

Then there is the immobiliser system.
Is the ECU part of an immobiliser system or not.?
User avatar
Robsey
Club Admin
Posts: 10568
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:42 pm
Location: East Manchester

Re: New old member cav sri redtop project

Post by Robsey »

Looks a very nice tidy example.

The total lack of power infers that either a main power feed or ground wire is not connected to thr battery.

In all honesty, you should not need to touch any wires in the engine bay, apart from swapping the ECU / injector loom.

I converted from Multec (C18NZ) to Motronic (C20NE) and did not need to change any other wiring.

Did you use a Cavalier loom?
I presume not, as the connectors in the driver's kick panel should have all been plug and play.
(Again they matched perfectly on my NZ to NE conversion.).
vaux16v
Registered user
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:58 pm

Re: New old member cav sri redtop project

Post by vaux16v »

Looks a lovely car.

Hope it goes well for you.
d.lynch sri
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:48 pm
Location: Derry, n.Ireland

Re: New old member cav sri redtop project

Post by d.lynch sri »

Robsey wrote:Looks a very nice tidy example.

The total lack of power infers that either a main power feed or ground wire is not connected to thr battery.

In all honesty, you should not need to touch any wires in the engine bay, apart from swapping the ECU / injector loom.

I converted from Multec (C18NZ) to Motronic (C20NE) and did not need to change any other wiring.

Did you use a Cavalier loom?
I presume not, as the connectors in the driver's kick panel should have all been plug and play.
(Again they matched perfectly on my NZ to NE conversion.).
Cheers for the reply robsey!
See thats what im thinking, im thinking hes left an earth off somewhere maybe or is there a chance that something has come loose in the kick panel when he was removing the old loom and ecu?

Also i think he would have had to split all the power and earths at the battery to rempve the old loom/connect the new? So maybe somethings been lost there too.

The engine/loom came out of a calibra and im nearly sure it didnt have an immobiliser. The plugs in the kick panel were both either male or female, cant mind, so he had to join them.
d.lynch sri
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:48 pm
Location: Derry, n.Ireland

Re: New old member cav sri redtop project

Post by d.lynch sri »

vaux16v wrote:Looks a lovely car.

Hope it goes well for you.

Cheers mate fingers crossed and all that lol
Im going out tomorrow to give him a hand so hopefully we get to the bottom of it
User avatar
Robsey
Club Admin
Posts: 10568
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:42 pm
Location: East Manchester

Re: New old member cav sri redtop project

Post by Robsey »

Total power loss means you need to concentrate close to the battery.

So looking at the battery -
Silly question is it fitted the right way round?
(Sorry to ask such a stupid question, but I don't know the oriention on a mk2 Escort).
I do like the Mk2 RS 1600 / 1800 / 2000 bodyshell shape though.

On the Cavalier it is -
Negative terminal closer to the wing with all the brown wires connected from the inner wing.
Plus another earth braid or very heavy brown wire to the gearbox or bell housing.

The positive terminal is towards the engine with all the heavy red wires connected to it.
As said - on some ECU looms the main feed wire is red but may have a black sheath on it. My NE loom had the black sheath.
A bit confusing at the time.

On the ECU / Injector loom, there are at least 5 or 6 brown earth wires, which bolt to various studs along the back of the cam-shaft housing or the inlet manifold / throttle body castings.

Obviously, the ECU loom would not affect head lights etc, but would affect some of the dash lights, rev counter and fuel pump operation.

The power loom itself would only affect the start and charge circuits plus the temperature gauge.

So hopefully that narrows stuff down a bit.
User avatar
Cavalier342
Registered user
Posts: 9818
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:46 pm
Location: Dorset

Re: New old member cav sri redtop project

Post by Cavalier342 »

Very clean looking motor! Good luck with getting the issue sorted out.
Previous:
China Blue 1989 Vauxhall Cavalier L 18SV
Kings Blue 1992 Vauxhall Cavalier LSi Auto C18NZ
Smoke Grey 1994 Vauxhall Cavalier V6 C25XE

Am I a light sleeper or a heavy sleeper? Well that depends on how much I've had to drink...
iangsi
Club Admin
Posts: 1709
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:58 pm
Location: Bromley, Kent.

Re: New old member cav sri redtop project

Post by iangsi »

Nice looking cav :thumb
d.lynch sri
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:48 pm
Location: Derry, n.Ireland

Re: New old member cav sri redtop project

Post by d.lynch sri »

Cheers folks its getting there now. Turns out the fault wasnt anything major and was very stupid to be honest lol. Turns out there was a couple lives on the earth terminal of the battery :tdown

Anyway weve got that side sorted now and weve moved onto the next problem..
We got the car started there last night and it ticked over for a few secondd and it died out. (There was no exhaust or air pipes on at this stage)

We then built the car back up tidied all the wirng got the exhaust welded on fitted air pipes sfi box etc and changed oil and filter. We then fired it back up again and it was running very lumpy and wouldnt take a rev it would just bog down. It was very smokey too (grey smoke) we tried cranking it for a while but it was no good.

We checked for spark and petrol and all seemed alright. Then changed the spark plugs to see. When we took the plugs out they were soaking with petrol. Took out the dipstick and it too stank of petrol so we decided to take my nice fresh oil back out. There was loads of petrol in the oil.

We then decided to check the injectors, we disconnected them and turned it over and the petrol shot across the room? Should there be that much petrol coming out of the injectors??

Last thing we tried was the ecotec injectors. Car ran fine for about 2 mins but eventually died out. This time we took the spark plugs back out and they were thick black and this time they were dry..

Ive got a replacement fuel rail and injectors and another loom as well as a couple people have told me it could be one of these 2 things. Im also thinking it could be coolant temp sensor maybe?

Anybody have trouble like this before??

(Sorry for the life story folks) :lol:
User avatar
Cavalier342
Registered user
Posts: 9818
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:46 pm
Location: Dorset

Re: New old member cav sri redtop project

Post by Cavalier342 »

Far as I know injectors should "pulse" and spray fuel out, and when the engine is idling you should be able to hear the slight "fast ticking" sound of the injectors opening and closing. At least on the 8 valvers that is the case, I've not had experience with 16 valvers. Sounds like she could be over-fuelling, wonder if the valve timing is out somehow? Also have you replaced the lambda sensor at all?
Previous:
China Blue 1989 Vauxhall Cavalier L 18SV
Kings Blue 1992 Vauxhall Cavalier LSi Auto C18NZ
Smoke Grey 1994 Vauxhall Cavalier V6 C25XE

Am I a light sleeper or a heavy sleeper? Well that depends on how much I've had to drink...
User avatar
Robsey
Club Admin
Posts: 10568
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:42 pm
Location: East Manchester

Re: New old member cav sri redtop project

Post by Robsey »

As Andrei infers, the fuel should not "jet out", but instead it should be sprayed out in a smooth, even conical shape.

Fuel in the engine oil would indicate either that the petrol is not being burnt properly, and it could also be that the jet is probably sticking in the open position, thus flooding the combustion chambers, which then drains back into the crank-case.

Not good as this will wash away any lubrication from all 'rubbing' surfaces.

I would consider also that a lumpy idle points towards an issue with the ignition circuit to one or more cylinders.

Not an expert on the V6s, so take a look at the coil, ignition leads, rotor and distributor cap if / where fitted.

Now then - the black sooted up plugs indicate over fuelling possibly due to an over rich mixture for which there are various causes.
An engine that is cold will have a richer mixtur - query faulty engine ecu temperature sensor reading too low.
Lambda sensor reading too lean.
And so on.

So -
In your situation, I would look at the injector spray patterns, and if necessary get the injectors refurbished.

Fit new seals.

Clean and dry all ignition components.
Consider replacing the leads, rotor and distributor cap if you have any doubt at all.

Clean all loom connections, however a problem on the injector side would reduce fuel for combustion. And so weaken the mixture.
But connectors for the lambda or ecu engine temperature sensor will affect their perceived resistances and so give incorrect information to the ecu.

White or grey smoke infers moisture in the engine or exhaust, however this should progressively reduce as the car warms up and the condensation is burnt off.

If the smoke does not reduce, then this would indicate a head gasket fault. But is it water or fuel in the oil?

Water should turn the oil to a sludgey beige mayonaise type gloop.

Hope that gives you a few places to look.
d.lynch sri
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:48 pm
Location: Derry, n.Ireland

Re: New old member cav sri redtop project

Post by d.lynch sri »

Got my overfuelling problem sorted!
I had a chat with the man I bought the engine off and explained to him what was happening. We heard a couple people mentioning that ot could be either loom or injectors .

He was really sound about it and he gave me injectors fuel rail and loom out of his own car.

I started with changing the injectors and just thought wile I had them out id change loom too.

The new loom was definitely in better shape than the first one so im thinking that the problem was in the loom somewhere.

Im happy to say it fired up first turn of the key (after we changed the oil and filter.. again! Lol) So it seemed to be running ok although it was very ticky and it sounded like it had a slight miss in it.

I wasnt too worried about this as we looked at the dizzy and rotor arm and they were well so Im thinking that could be whats wrong there. Eml was also on though.

Next thing disaster struck! Lol

We thought that was her sorted so we hit the road to take the car back to my shed (10 minutes away) we got within 50 yards of the shed and the dash lit up like a christmas tree. Battery light oil light the works. I stopped straight away and turned the car off.

The car decided it didnt need its altenator belt anymore and got rid of it lol. The altenator belt decided to take the power steering belt with it and the power steering belt ripped a hole in the oil cooler pipes. My mate who was driving behind me said the car was a bit smokey on the way up to my shed too.

Not a good start for the redtop lol

My plan is to do away with oil cooler and convert my power steering belt and altenator to ribbed type belt all I think I need is a late type crank pulley and use p/s pump altenator and engine mount from the ecotec.

Theres always something :tdown
User avatar
Robsey
Club Admin
Posts: 10568
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:42 pm
Location: East Manchester

Re: New old member cav sri redtop project

Post by Robsey »

Oh the joys of Cav ownership.

Good to hear you got the running side of things working.

I would get the alternator and the other pulleys checked for shot bearings before fitting any new belts.

Hopefully the smoke is just the friction of the belt rubbing on the seized alternator or whatever caused the belt to snap.

It will get there soon enough.

With regards ticking - I know the injectors on the 2 litre 8 valve engines tick quite loud. This is normal, so it may also be the case for the red-top.

If the engine has been stood a while, then it will definitely benefit from a good dose of cleaning the ignition components and ensure they are dry and in good shape.

The distributor cap, rotor and leads can all make a huge difference if left to fester.
d.lynch sri
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:48 pm
Location: Derry, n.Ireland

Re: New old member cav sri redtop project

Post by d.lynch sri »

Time for an update and im back to square one unfortunately :wall

I went ahead and converted the vbelt altenator setup to the later ribbed belt. Reason I did this was because my old altenator and p/s pump werent the best and everything on my ecotec engine was like new.

Only thing I needed was a redtop crank pulley which I got handy enough from ebay. And a redtop altenator bracket that I got from a mate. Everything else fitted straight on engine mount, altenator, ps pump and fitted a new fan belt while I was at it.

I then got rid of my leaky oil cooler and sandwich plate which was handy too, all I needed for that was the oil filter threaded nipple from the ecotec.

All was going too well lol.

After I got it all screwed back together I found myself back in the same place when the car kept flooding as I tried to start it..

I tried checking the cts wiring but it seems in good condition. I changed the cts although I could only get a black on and its blue on the car?? Ive heard theres a difference??

I tried swapping the coil with a spare one as the man i got the engine did tell me that one of them was faulty, no difference..

I flashed the codes then and got 57 idle speed control valve (ISCV) interruption.

Ive heard that the icv plug and knock sensor plug can get mixed up so checked they werent and there not..

I plan to try to get into the icv tomorrow and take it from there, seems like a nightmare to get at lol.

Any suggestions welcome folks before the cavalier see a box of matches on the front seat :lol:

Ill try to get some pics up in a while
d.lynch sri
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:48 pm
Location: Derry, n.Ireland

Re: New old member cav sri redtop project

Post by d.lynch sri »

Treated the rocker and timing cover to a new coat of paint too to freshen it up..

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
iangsi
Club Admin
Posts: 1709
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:58 pm
Location: Bromley, Kent.

Re: New old member cav sri redtop project

Post by iangsi »

That redtop looks right at home in there, hope you get your fueling problem sorted soon.
d.lynch sri
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:48 pm
Location: Derry, n.Ireland

Re: New old member cav sri redtop project

Post by d.lynch sri »

iangsi wrote:That redtop looks right at home in there, hope you get your fueling problem sorted soon.
Cheers mate, couldnt agree more!
Its much better coming into the shed and seeing the redtop under there.. even if it isnt going yet lol
d.lynch sri
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:48 pm
Location: Derry, n.Ireland

Re: New old member cav sri redtop project

Post by d.lynch sri »

Checked a couple things today and might have eventually found my problem..
As I was saying before I flashed the codes and got 57 - idle speed control valve interruption. I started by checking the icv and taking it off, cleaning and refitted it.
Didnt make any difference..

After that I was all out of options but decided to check the timing and it does look like its out by half a tooth. Ill upload a few pics to see what yous think
Post Reply