Vauxhall Senator

[cavalier1990]

I#m convinced that theres a lot of cars that have got an mot thanks to either a blind or over friendly mot inspector.

A lot of the rust was hidden out of sight so wouldn't have been apparent to the tester. I did have to hit the chassis leg with a hammer to break the rust, it's pretty thick metal so mot tester can only use a little window breaker type hammer. In saying that it's 5 Years since it was last anywhere near a station so no doubt the rust progressed a bit since then.

======

Managed to get a bit more stuff done today. Cut out a lot of the remaining crusty edges, trying to get it to that point where I can start thinking about making up panel templates with cardboard. The door frame/ kickplate bit is a bit of a pain and the bulkhead upper join where the water flows out the scuttle area, there seems to be like a sandwich of metal panels there with what seems like vulcanised rubber sealer betweem them. I need to dig this out so that I can weld any new metak to the upper bulkhead panel that protrudes down from that section.

Anyhoo I took some pics, granted it looks like I've taken more pictures of the ground and my tools than the car, but you can see if you look closely the bits I removed.

The strut tower and the inner wing section that goes along side it was rusting away on it's lower edge, and up into each corner where it meets the strut tower "top hat" edges

Sorry about the slow loading pics I forgot to edit them down to a more "web-friendly" size before uploading them to Amazon s3.

https://andrew-cars.s3.eu-west-2.amazon ... e_rust.jpg

Cut this out and left me with this result:

https://andrew-cars.s3.eu-west-2.amazon ... cutout.jpg

The cross brace bit under the floor I had removed a while ago, so along with this and a bit of floor section I cut out today, I took a pic of that. You can probably see it's seen better days:

https://andrew-cars.s3.eu-west-2.amazon ... cutout.jpg

I tackled the chassis leg N/S as well, this was starting to go on the forward facing section and the left side where the cross brace welds on to, so off it came. There's an old repair on the other side of the leg, which you can see in the pic, it's actually ok that bit (why didn't it rust too ), the edges were a bit shredded where I cut off the lower section, so just trimmed that off after taking this pic:

https://andrew-cars.s3.eu-west-2.amazon ... cutout.jpg

This one, it's more like a picture of the ground underneath where the floor used to be lol, but you can see the edges of the remains of the good bit of the floor.

https://andrew-cars.s3.eu-west-2.amazon ... cutout.jpg

All in all a monumental bit of work to get on with, but it'll be very pleasing to finally start "building back" out the way, new floor pan, new cross brace, chassis leg repair, then I'll have something to work with when putting the repair on the kickpanel side, and also something for the new inner sill to join up to.

[cavalier1990]

I've been squirelling away on this the last 2 weeks but not taken many pictures, but I took some last night. I've been trying to get the courage up to tackle the bulkhead end section that needs a bit of work for eventual welding. The big issue with the senator is the bulkheads are for want of a better word, glued into place, and it is extremely tough rubber sealant that is used. It is a moumental pain to remove and there is lots of it needs taken out to allow any welding to take place.

Adding to that most of the lines of this sealant are squeezed way into all the little fidgety corners where it is dark with lots of objects and sharp bits of metal floating about. I'm glad to say I think I've finally removed what I wanted to remove and shaped the metal areas to a point where I can make up templates and then repair panels.

I'd also fashioned a bulkhead end plate from a spare GM one I have (Opposite side one), I measured and measured, and the dimensions were looking good, however I got my local metal guy to drill and cut out a sort of rectangular hole that goes in it for the lower access section and ended up marking the hole offset. So it's back to the drawing board with this, good thing is I have the correct size shaped plate just need to get the metal guy to cut out the hole in the correct place this time.

First image you can see, or rather, cannot see the edge of the bulkhead I took away, almost up to the wiring loom. There is another wiring loom for the headlights, horn and washers and various other stuff, that I completely removed so that I could repair this bit properly. I've sprayed primer on the bits I cleaned off so they won't rust. Below this section is the upper floorpan, which I decided to cut straight down from the section you can see (Just below bulkhead loom) where the inner wing, bulkhead and floorpan all meet.




This next pic is where I've cut straight down to the bottom of the lower floor (When it was there)! By doing this it means I can make one panel that will create the whole floor pan and the upper bit of the bulkhead, rather than bits and patches.



this next pci is the area where a plate is needed for across the top of the inner wing and strut tower. I have the template but am just holding off till I'm sure my work on the bulkhead below isn't going to alter what I need to do above it.



And now for something completely different. This is the top section of the chassis leg that was rusting away, I fixed the other side a few years ago. I had to remove the ABS pump thing, whih sits on a cradle that is bolted to the subframe, the side of the chassis leg and one down into the chassis leg. True to form the captive nut in the downward bolt sheared off, so it came loose after about 3 hours trying to undo the tight and inaccessible bolts. The area in that side of the engine bay is virtually clear of anything but it's still a pain to get those bolts out.




So I will need to fashion a template for the floor to upper bulkhead section, if I'm really brave I could make one whole panel to do from the lower floor, the upper floor and the bulkhead bit. This is the point where I stop digging and start filling, hopefully. I can then get all the little bits sorted and start building the bigger panels back on like the inner sill, the door frame, but that's all yet to come.

Cheers for now!

[3cav3]

Looks like you've got some serious fabricating in front of you. Its amazing how these older vauxhalls can rot, remind why we like them so much, lol.

[cavalier1990]

Looks like you've got some serious fabricating in front of you. Its amazing how these older vauxhalls can rot, remind why we like them so much, lol.

It does find its way into all sorts of weird and wonderful places, hopefully I'm at a turning point where I start building new metal back in. There is a lot of fabricating and stuff to do, but my cornflakes boxes will hopefully help towards making up all those templates, better start eating!!

[Robsey]

Wow that looks very scary.
Definitely a braver man than me.

Hopefully you have had some good weather this weekend and things have progressed further.

[cavalier1990]

Wow that looks very scary.
Definitely a braver man than me.

Hopefully you have had some good weather this weekend and things have progressed further.

It's not as scary looking once you cut out the old metal. I had to make up a complete template for the floor pan. I had to use 2 big bits of cardboard from my famous cornflake boxes and then measure up the size of metal I need. Then get a custom order from pennine metals. Last job was to cut out the inner wing chassis leg section next to the bit you see in the pic, then the last bit is the battery tray area, which needs removed and a new battery tray section put in. The only repair panel I can see is a partial upper inner wing section, which seems a lot to replace the little ledge where the battery tray sits, but I need a battery tray, so will need to hunt for one that might be suitable, and that you can get seperately.

I might just get something like this that you can bolt on:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/184612754008 ... SwNIJf-HbU

Cheers

Andrew

[Robsey]

It would take some modifying, as the Antara uses the Korea / Japan method to hold down batteries.

Two hook like rods (one in front and one behind the battery body) The two hooks loop through holes in the battery tray. On the top of the hook rod is a threaded section. A U shaped metal bar sits over the battery and is tightened down onto the hook rods with nuts.

As for cornflake boxes... I thought you would have used porridge oats boxes. Better for your health and cholesterol, I believe... ha ha

[cavalier1990]

It would take some modifying, as the Antara uses the Korea / Japan method to hold down batteries.

Two hook like rods (one in front and one behind the battery body) The two hooks loop through holes in the battery tray. On the top of the hook rod is a threaded section. A U shaped metal bar sits over the battery and is tightened down onto the hook rods with nuts.

As for cornflake boxes... I thought you would have used porridge oats boxes. Better for your health and cholesterol, I believe... ha ha

Lol being up in kilt land yeah I really should be using porridge oat boxes, but it's mainly what my folks use for cereal, or what I munch through when I'm there. So I eat them out of house and home then use up their corn flake boxes lol!

I seen that, it has the more japanese type clamp of the up and over bracket with the long threads, hmm don't know I'm open to suggestions or if I ever found someone with a carlton or senator breaking who would be willing to cut out the section for me. Maybe Derek @gm6 might have one they break all those type of motors.

[3cav3]

Would it be worth contact a local engineering company to knock you up a new battery tray?

[Robsey]

Most Astra G and H battery trays are bolt in jobs, with standard M8 bolt and clamp to secure your battery into place.
Just need to verify whether the Senny and the Astras shared the same battery sizes - thinking 1.7 diesel / 17cdti models here as diesels usually need bigger batteries.

[cavalier1990]

Would it be worth contact a local engineering company to knock you up a new battery tray?

I've contacted Derek @ GM6 to see if he has any he can cut off the section of a carlton or senator he has lying around. See how I get on with that first. I'd probably have a go at making one myself if I got really stuck.

[cavalier1990]

My other options is an Omega B repair panel I can get from opel classic parts (if they'll ship it) it's probably going to cost me the guts of 200 to get the whole panel Inc. shipping, but it's the same battery tray, an when I remove it I'll have a spare inner wing repair panel for my omega, should I ever need it, and going by vauxhall's metal longevity, probably sooner rather than later!

[3cav3]

My other options is an Omega B repair panel I can get from opel classic parts (if they'll ship it) it's probably going to cost me the guts of 200 to get the whole panel Inc. shipping, but it's the same battery tray, an when I remove it I'll have a spare inner wing repair panel for my omega, should I ever need it, and going by vauxhall's metal longevity, probably sooner rather than later!

Yep if you look up Vauxhall in the dictionary its definition is "Rust, and plenty of it"

[cavalier1990]

Just forked out 0ver 100 bucks on a "spare" 2nd hand thermostat holder for the 3.0 engine as they are a common issue for alloy corrosion, mine looks past it's best, and the are hard to come by, so I've always had my eye out for one. Then as luck would have it a brand new one popped up on selling site for....£103, damn he thinks!

Only thing was, and in vx tradition, there are two numbers for this part, I wasn't sure the one on sale was for a 3.0 engine, but maybe for the 2.6 straight 6, also seen it listed for a Frontera C2.4NE as well. I got the guy to send some pics but still not sure, so I looked at the spare one, which will fit mine, and can't see any show stopping differences. The only thing I think might be different on the new one is the side of the unit is a small allen key type drain/bleed, highlighted with yellow circle, which you can see in part number 2 in the diagram below; part 1 has the thread:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/eRkF44H2opVn4fgf7

The casting for the drain plug is still there, I just don't see the thread in the housing, which would be fine, as the top section that covers the stat, has an air bleed, but most of the time they are seized solid anyway!

[Robsey]

I have looked on EPC for your VIN.

Looking at the thermostat castings.
My blurb states for your car.
Part number 90 280 479 is used for.
25NE
C30LE - superseeded by 90 467 119
C26NE - Upto engine No 01042902
30NE, C30NE - upto engine No 01044623

Strangely the supersession No 90 467 119 then covers -
C30LE
C26NE - from Engine No 01042903
C30NE - from Engine No 01044624

So from what I can read, the casting without the drain screw appears to have replaced the casting with the drain screw.

The only oddball casting is the bottom one, which was for the C30SE.

I hope that helps, it is as clear as mud for me.

[cavalier1990]

Thanks Robsey, that's all helplful info there, I'm glad you can see this drain screw, or lack of it too on the 119 one, pretty sure that's the only difference.

Glad I could get a new one, as it's one of those things I've been looking for for ages. Something I've learned about those VX numbers, some of them the part is basically no different but has one or more superseeding number, other parts with the same number seem to be different depending on how vx felt that day when they were raiding their part bins!

[Robsey]

Maybe Vauxhall realised that the bolt was always going to seize in the original casting, so simplified the design and cut production costs in the process.

Although there is nothing to stop you drilling and tapping a thread in there if you really wished to.

[cavalier1990]

Managed to source a new left inner wing panel in Germany for the senator (with original battery tray panel) and one of the guys from the autobahnstormers site, who works in Germany, offered to pick it up for me on his way back and then ship it to me when he got back to blighty. The seller wouldn't ship to UK, but one that I found the same who would ship was charging £250.

Only cost 106 bucks for this less the cost of posting in UK. Having the inner wing panel makes me want to replace the whole thing, but that's just too much work, which requires jigs and stuff, so what I plan to do is drill off the battery tray, then obviously keep the inner wing as a spare. It's only 4 or 5 spot welds holding it on, so won't make a mess of the new panel.

[Robsey]

Having the inner wing panel makes me want to replace the whole thing, but that's just too much work, which requires jigs and stuff, so what I plan to do is drill off the battery tray, then obviously keep the inner wing as a spare. It's only 4 or 5 spot welds holding it on, so won't make a mess of the new panel.

I suppose it all depends on the condition of the rest of the existing inner wing.
A good find though.

[cavalier1990]

Having the inner wing panel makes me want to replace the whole thing, but that's just too much work, which requires jigs and stuff, so what I plan to do is drill off the battery tray, then obviously keep the inner wing as a spare. It's only 4 or 5 spot welds holding it on, so won't make a mess of the new panel.

I suppose it all depends on the condition of the rest of the existing inner wing.
A good find though.

There is some crust up around the tower, along the edges where the chassis rail meets the inner wing, and the flat section where the battery tray sits, but I'd need to fix the line along the chassis rail anyway, even if replacing the whole inner wing.

[cavalier1990]

Long overdue an update here, been a busy year so far non car related stuff. but in the background I've been trying to gather as much information as I can for rebuilding the N/S on the senator, such as measurements. I did some work a month ago on the front floor and interior, basically getting the centre console out as I need to remove the big air vent pipes for the rear heating underfloor, that run under the centre conole. Also started welding in a few plates to the bits under the front floor.

One of the bits that has been putting me right off this is the side dashboard panel. It's basically the panel that runs from the top of the inner wing right down to the floor edge, which the dash bolts on to.

I had sourced an O/S one but was left with no option but to try and fashion a sheet of metal for the N/S, which is a total pain and is near impossible to to do it right, unless you are a master metal worker.

I've now since managed to source one on ebay, but am waiting on the guy get back to me for shipping costs. Hopefully I can get this soon.

There is a garage which I pass now and again, anytime I visit my work base, and they have a lot of old cars outside. I passed the other week and there was a senator lying there. I decided to pay the guy a visit to see if I could get some measurements off of it, thinking he would probably tell me where to go, but he was very accommodating and gave me a tour of the place. The senator is being recommisioned for someone, it looks like it's been lying for a while but is not rusty, just dirty and they've got the ECU out under the kickpanel so must be needing a bit of work or have a fault.

He's got a few outbuildings one with a BTCC Nissan Primera, an old Lotus Elan that Jackie Stewart owned, lots of porsches, an Aston Martin and up at the top there is a Lancia Thema v6, an old S class Merc, the senator, and a few jags plus plenty of other weird and wonderful things I can't remember, oh and a canal barge lol!

I didn't have my measuring tape or anything, but he said come back anytime as it'll be here a few months.

[Robsey]

What a bonus, pity he isn't donating parts and panels

It will take a lot of guesswork out of it for you.
Take lots of measurements and photos.

That is what I have always done - it is especially helpful for refitting parts to the van, many years after taking them off to clean or repair.
It is amazing how much there is and how much you have forgotten over the years.

[cavalier1990]

What a bonus, pity he isn't donating parts and panels

It will take a lot of guesswork out of it for you.
Take lots of measurements and photos.

That is what I have always done - it is especially helpful for refitting parts to the van, many years after taking them off to clean or repair.
It is amazing how much there is and how much you have forgotten over the years.

This was a surprisingly un rusty senator, but it was covered in scum/moss green patena!

It was really that dash side panel behind the wing that was keeping me away from doing any more work as that was the bit I had to mount the door pillar onto, didn't like the thought of the amount of measuring and fettling I was going to have to do, with no real guarantee it would fit. One notch out and the whole thing would have been a twisted mess!

Hopefully hear back from this guy soon, getting a bit anxious he's not got back last week, but his son said he would get back to me.

Cheers

Andy

[cavalier1990]

The chance to source the other dash panel fell through, I don't know what happened to the guy, he just seemed to snub me after attempts to buy it. Probably got a bee in his bonnet about brexit, but they ship worldwide so not really any issue more than to ship anywhere else outside the EU.

What with my long summer holiday and the usual everything and anything happening other than car work I've not got some plans to try and get to the senator and get some more work done. The only thing that would be against me now is the weather, and being based in West Scotland you can get anything, and weather forecasts are usually crap.

I did get the measurement from that other senator for B post to B post, it was 57.5 inches from door catch to door catch. A guy off the autobahnstormers told me his was 57 inches, so that's 0.5" difference but I'm not exactly sure where he measured it from, or if he done it with the door seals on or off, or from inside the seal or outside, which could add 0.5" either way. Either way I trust my measurement and can replicate this on mine with confidence, so all good.

[Robsey]

I suspect that the door-shut to door-shut dimension will be fine, and there is probably a little room to manoeuvre.
As long as the openings are in alignment with the body.
Although the hinges and latches can be tweaked for a better alignment.

I would be a lot more pedantic about the fore/aft dimensioning of the pillars. A, B, C and D posts.
Mainly because the door casings and skins are fixed and cannot tidily be manipulated.

I hope we will be treated to some progress this year.
I don't think we have ever seen a 'proper' picture of this beautiful beast yet.