Cable's Thread of Ongoing Misery

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Cabletwitch
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Re: Cable's Thread of Ongoing Misery

Post by Cabletwitch »

This useless thing...

Image

I wonder if I can still get them though...
Never use another Cav driver as guidance to a destination, unless you REALLY want to explore the country.

"Won't SOMEBODY please think of the scones?"

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Robsey
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Re: Cable's Thread of Ongoing Misery

Post by Robsey »

Looks like part number 17087069

It is listed as about £25 plus post from Genuine Parts Search.

Showing as still available from dealers.

Fuel Evaporation Control or Fuel Vent Valve on the bulkhead near to the MAP sensor on Multec vehicles.
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Re: Cable's Thread of Ongoing Misery

Post by Cabletwitch »

That's odd, because the part number on it is 90410214, which is what I've been searching for. Also, a distinct lack of anything like it on Ebay, which didn't help matters. I'll look into getting one then, and try not to break it when fitting!

Edit: Got one! Should arrive fairly soon-ish, and then I can get back to trying not to break more of the car in search of this damned problem...
Never use another Cav driver as guidance to a destination, unless you REALLY want to explore the country.

"Won't SOMEBODY please think of the scones?"

1.7TD Ethos (Slightly broken)
1.8i (Given up, going for parts)
2.0i (WHY won't it work?!)
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Re: Cable's Thread of Ongoing Misery

Post by Robsey »

Your part number does not show on EPC, Ecat nor Genuine Parts Search.

I have seen this before with my front suspension legs (knuckles). That part number didn't exist either.
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Re: Cable's Thread of Ongoing Misery

Post by Cabletwitch »

Bloody GM, making life miserable for us all! *Shakes fist and rambles on about mystery numbers incoherently...*
Never use another Cav driver as guidance to a destination, unless you REALLY want to explore the country.

"Won't SOMEBODY please think of the scones?"

1.7TD Ethos (Slightly broken)
1.8i (Given up, going for parts)
2.0i (WHY won't it work?!)
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Re: Cable's Thread of Ongoing Misery

Post by Cabletwitch »

Ok, for the princely sum of £12, I've obtained an exhaust and intake manifold gasket for the lump. Now, these SHOULD have been changed during the head gasket repair, but something is bugging me a little regarding this. The studs to hold the exhaust manifold on show no signs of having a nut undone on them, as all the rust is pretty much intact on the threads. You would think the thing would have had to come off to be machined (to be honest, I don't know myself. I would assume so, but no clue). Plus, I see what could be smoke, but is likely to be exhaust crap floating up while the car is on, which leads me to believe the exhaust gasket itself is either improperly fitted or never got changed.

Now, the main question here is thus... while the exhaust is easy to do, does the intake manifold also pass coolant to the block in this engine layout? Not got my Haynes Big Book of Lies on hand to check, but I'm aware some engines have this as a thing. IF so, it's not going to make life too difficult for me, but I'm in the mind to check before I go anywhere near it with a socket set and grim determination. The main objective is also to examine the throttle body assembly for any defects while its out and easy to look over.

Maybe I'm being overly ambitious here, but I'm running out of other ideas. Oh, and what's the best way to get the pipe off either the check valve or the brake servo without breaking all and sundry? Need to check to see if the servo itself is leaking too... if it is, that's yet another adventure deep into the engine bay with a medkit handy...
Never use another Cav driver as guidance to a destination, unless you REALLY want to explore the country.

"Won't SOMEBODY please think of the scones?"

1.7TD Ethos (Slightly broken)
1.8i (Given up, going for parts)
2.0i (WHY won't it work?!)
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Re: Cable's Thread of Ongoing Misery

Post by Mk3alan »

The exhaust studs may have come out when/if the nuts were undone?

Alan
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Re: Cable's Thread of Ongoing Misery

Post by Robsey »

As Alan said - it is quite common for the studs to unscrew from the head.
Especially where the nuts are rusted on solid.

Changing the gaskets is not too much of a biggie, as long as the studs do not shear or snap during removal or tightening up.
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Re: Cable's Thread of Ongoing Misery

Post by cavalier1990 »

Cabletwitch wrote:Ok, for the princely sum of £12, I've obtained an exhaust and intake manifold gasket for the lump. Now, these SHOULD have been changed during the head gasket repair, but something is bugging me a little regarding this. The studs to hold the exhaust manifold on show no signs of having a nut undone on them, as all the rust is pretty much intact on the threads. You would think the thing would have had to come off to be machined (to be honest, I don't know myself. I would assume so, but no clue). Plus, I see what could be smoke, but is likely to be exhaust crap floating up while the car is on, which leads me to believe the exhaust gasket itself is either improperly fitted or never got changed.

Now, the main question here is thus... while the exhaust is easy to do, does the intake manifold also pass coolant to the block in this engine layout? Not got my Haynes Big Book of Lies on hand to check, but I'm aware some engines have this as a thing. IF so, it's not going to make life too difficult for me, but I'm in the mind to check before I go anywhere near it with a socket set and grim determination. The main objective is also to examine the throttle body assembly for any defects while its out and easy to look over.

Maybe I'm being overly ambitious here, but I'm running out of other ideas. Oh, and what's the best way to get the pipe off either the check valve or the brake servo without breaking all and sundry? Need to check to see if the servo itself is leaking too... if it is, that's yet another adventure deep into the engine bay with a medkit handy...
Worst case, they didn't skim the head and just changed the gasket. You can take the manifold downpipe off and the hoses and pipes to the inlet manifold and lift the whole thing off that way, just to change the gasket. Saves taking all the manifolds off. Means you can't do the skimming though. Usually when you take an exhaust manifold off at least one of the studs will come out with the nut, but I find in all cases the nut itself, without stud, will come off too. Never had one where all nuts or all studs come off, usually a mix.

Assuming that's the case, that they haven't removed manifold, you should check if the manifold downpipe bolts look "clean" or new even, or missing ones as they snap all the time. And look for freshly applied gasket assembly paste round it, usually a beige colour.

Sorry to give you bad news about the servo pipe but they are impossible to remove from the 3 way valve without destroying the plastic pipe. You can however remove the pipe from servo and manifold end easily. On mine the lower part of the pipe was broken so I cut it off and ordered a replacement, but this comes as a rubber hose with the threading round it. Does just as good a job anyway. Part number 1 here:

http://ecat24.com/opel/catalog/part/1/39/385/4317/9924/

I'm quite sure your servo will be fine. Did you test it as I explained earlier?

If you are thinking of removing inlet manifold there are some bolts that are a total PITA to get at but a bit of patient is all that is needed. There is a plastic coolant pipe runs under and along the underneath of the inlet manifold, you need to remove the 2 bolts that lock the pipe to the cylinder block, then push it down out the way, otherwise you won't get at the lower manifold bolts.
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Re: Cable's Thread of Ongoing Misery

Post by Cabletwitch »

Ok, the more I drive, the more I'm convinced the fault lies on the brake servo side of things. A couple of things have been happening, all seemingly connected, which kinda solidifies my conviction this is where the problem lies...

1) The brake pedal is getting softer, and requires more force to get the same braking. No complete loss of vacuum, but it's nowhere near as strong as it used to be, pointing at a potential leak within the unit itself.

2) The engine is running off an air leak when the main intake pipe is covered, which would mean the point where the air is being drawn in would be fairly large to provide that amount of air. I can't hear or feel any further leaks around the throttle body area, so the only large bore direct source of air would be the servo pipe... which is worrying. This would also have the effect of adding unmetered oxygen to the mix, causing the O2 sensor to increase the fuel to the injector and thus over-enriching the mix, causing the misfires and strong smell of unburnt fuel at the exhaust (I think?)

3) The brake servo line runs to the number 4 cylinder... which has been the one pictured further back in the thread showing the weird colouration and damage, which would further reinforce the idea that the extra air is coming via the servo line.

So... now I'm pondering... I can replace the pipe, and the check valve... but what about the servo? I've asked earlier, but now I'm really looking into the possibility of replacing it with a compatible unit. Would a Vectra unit from any of the recent version fit, or am I looking at going back and finding a working Cav era unit? All I need is the servo doughnut, the master cylinder is fine.

Here's hoping this IS the final step in the fixing of this epic and overly long issue!
Never use another Cav driver as guidance to a destination, unless you REALLY want to explore the country.

"Won't SOMEBODY please think of the scones?"

1.7TD Ethos (Slightly broken)
1.8i (Given up, going for parts)
2.0i (WHY won't it work?!)
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Re: Cable's Thread of Ongoing Misery

Post by Mk3alan »

Is it worth blocking the vacuum pipe from the manifold to the servo and seeing if the air leak problem is resolved from the running point of view?
Careful if you drive it like this as you will have 'no servo' and hence brake pedal assistance!

Alan
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Re: Cable's Thread of Ongoing Misery

Post by Cabletwitch »

I'm going to do this Saturday, yeah. I tried blocking the pipes point of entry at the manifold, I'm not entirely sure what happened as I was busy buggering around with other things at the time too. Given the issue is mostly at Idle (although stands to reason it happens all the time, misfires mainly occurring between 500-2K RPM most noticeably), I'll warm up the engine then when the O2 sensor is giving it the wobblies, try it then.
Never use another Cav driver as guidance to a destination, unless you REALLY want to explore the country.

"Won't SOMEBODY please think of the scones?"

1.7TD Ethos (Slightly broken)
1.8i (Given up, going for parts)
2.0i (WHY won't it work?!)
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Re: Cable's Thread of Ongoing Misery

Post by Cabletwitch »

Ok, got my throttle body in bits to inspect it, and I'm wondering... does the MAP sensor line plug into the lowest port on the manifold itself, or the lowest port on the throttle body (where it currently resides now)? I only ask, because I'm wondering if that would make any difference at all, given pressure readings. Aside from that, and getting petrol absolutely everywhere, I'm not seeing any evidence of gasket failure so far (a bit wary of opening up the two halves of the body itself, as I have no replacement gasket to fit if I do).

Any answers would be appreciated, especially fast ones!
Never use another Cav driver as guidance to a destination, unless you REALLY want to explore the country.

"Won't SOMEBODY please think of the scones?"

1.7TD Ethos (Slightly broken)
1.8i (Given up, going for parts)
2.0i (WHY won't it work?!)
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Re: Cable's Thread of Ongoing Misery

Post by Cabletwitch »

Well, I think it's time for another big update!

So, todays little sojourn into the world of the intake side of things proved there wasn't much wrong with it, just a throttle-to-manifold gasket that was a tad fragile. So far, nothing found but a couple of bits broken along the way such as that aforementioned gasket (replacement ordered), various clips and bits that were perished, and one horrifying moment when I managed to break the small stem off the non-return valve on the brake servo line... when oh when will I learn to cut the hoses off, not pull them? That's been sorted with some innovative cutting of the pipe and the judicious application of mitre bond, and is holding fine. The new vapour line vale is in and working, and the MAP sensor hose isn't 3 feet long anymore.

So, as you may imagine, I was a bit disappointed to not find any cause of the problem... until I decided to try the trick of covering the intake pipe and trying to find any hissing. Small hissy leak where the tiny vac pipes join the air box, but that wouldn't be the cause, as it's still intake side. Nope, nothing evident anywhere else... until I got bored and kinked the breather hose to see what would happen...

MAAAAHOOSIVE increase in intake volume, to the point where it was painful to keep my hand over the end of the intake pipe. "Huh", thought I... "How on earth is it pulling enough air THROUGH the engine block to keep the engine running like that?".

I still have no idea, but something I need to ask... the breather point on top, I was always under the impression is should have a slight vacuum on it to pull out any oil vapour and the like... so why when I pop the pipe off does there seem to be something very akin to exhaust gas being expelled? Am I now in the realms of 'Oh Christ no, this means the rings are gone?', or will someone save my poor brain and tell me this is somehow normal? Or do I just say bollocks to it all, and try and find a decent 20Xe to put in there instead, and launch this one off a cliff?

Any thoughts, my good people?
Never use another Cav driver as guidance to a destination, unless you REALLY want to explore the country.

"Won't SOMEBODY please think of the scones?"

1.7TD Ethos (Slightly broken)
1.8i (Given up, going for parts)
2.0i (WHY won't it work?!)
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Re: Cable's Thread of Ongoing Misery

Post by cavalier1990 »

Cabletwitch wrote:Well, I think it's time for another big update!

So, todays little sojourn into the world of the intake side of things proved there wasn't much wrong with it, just a throttle-to-manifold gasket that was a tad fragile. So far, nothing found but a couple of bits broken along the way such as that aforementioned gasket (replacement ordered), various clips and bits that were perished, and one horrifying moment when I managed to break the small stem off the non-return valve on the brake servo line... when oh when will I learn to cut the hoses off, not pull them? That's been sorted with some innovative cutting of the pipe and the judicious application of mitre bond, and is holding fine. The new vapour line vale is in and working, and the MAP sensor hose isn't 3 feet long anymore.

So, as you may imagine, I was a bit disappointed to not find any cause of the problem... until I decided to try the trick of covering the intake pipe and trying to find any hissing. Small hissy leak where the tiny vac pipes join the air box, but that wouldn't be the cause, as it's still intake side. Nope, nothing evident anywhere else... until I got bored and kinked the breather hose to see what would happen...

MAAAAHOOSIVE increase in intake volume, to the point where it was painful to keep my hand over the end of the intake pipe. "Huh", thought I... "How on earth is it pulling enough air THROUGH the engine block to keep the engine running like that?".

I still have no idea, but something I need to ask... the breather point on top, I was always under the impression is should have a slight vacuum on it to pull out any oil vapour and the like... so why when I pop the pipe off does there seem to be something very akin to exhaust gas being expelled? Am I now in the realms of 'Oh Christ no, this means the rings are gone?', or will someone save my poor brain and tell me this is somehow normal? Or do I just say bollocks to it all, and try and find a decent 20Xe to put in there instead, and launch this one off a cliff?

Any thoughts, my good people?
When you taking any pipes off like a vacuum pipe or coolant pipe it's always a good idea to "crack" the seal by twisting the pipe side to side before pulling off. If you can't do this with fingers just use some gentle force from a pair of pliers or something that sits over the pipe and will grip it. For coolant pipes I always use pump pliers to crack them or parrot pliers as some call them. This should be done over the collar where the pipe is sitting over, not on the soft part of the pipe.

I think before you do anything else you should try and post a video of your engine running. It's very hard to determine what the actual problem is and how it sounds in relation to a normal running 1.8 CNZ. You will get blow by gases feeding through the breather, this takes the gases blown past the piston rings and feeds them back into oil system and the inlet manifold. The mesh inside the rocker lets the oil blow condense and return to the sump and the bypass combustible gases get sucked into the inlet hence the little pipe from top of rocker back to Inlet manifold.
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Re: Cable's Thread of Ongoing Misery

Post by Cabletwitch »

I do try the gentle twisting before trying to remove anything, but sometimes even that is enough to break the aged plastic barbs on things, which is what has happened twice now. The metal ones, easy! The plastic ones... yeah, at the age of this car, cutting the pipe is far, far more preferable to the loss of the barb now, to be honest.

I'll get a video once I can find my stupid camera charger... it's just baffling me stupid where that went too... everything baffles me eventually...
Never use another Cav driver as guidance to a destination, unless you REALLY want to explore the country.

"Won't SOMEBODY please think of the scones?"

1.7TD Ethos (Slightly broken)
1.8i (Given up, going for parts)
2.0i (WHY won't it work?!)
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Re: Cable's Thread of Ongoing Misery

Post by cavalier1990 »

Cabletwitch wrote:I do try the gentle twisting before trying to remove anything, but sometimes even that is enough to break the aged plastic barbs on things, which is what has happened twice now. The metal ones, easy! The plastic ones... yeah, at the age of this car, cutting the pipe is far, far more preferable to the loss of the barb now, to be honest.

I'll get a video once I can find my stupid camera charger... it's just baffling me stupid where that went too... everything baffles me eventually...
It is inevitable with age that these things will break, probably better that the barb breaks and you change it as it will be on the verge of breaking anyway should it encounter some stress or someone bumping it as they work on other things.
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Re: Cable's Thread of Ongoing Misery

Post by Robsey »

It is best to warm plastic parts first...

Coldness often causes things to be more brittle and likely to fracture.

I always run my heater in the car for a while to warm up the cabin, before flexing the plastic trim panel at the base of the instrument cluster.
(Not the same, but the general principal is...)
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Re: Cable's Thread of Ongoing Misery

Post by Cabletwitch »

Well... a long conversation with my pet mechanic, and I do believe we're homing in on the actual, real fault now... the injector. Seems the multec SPI injectors aren't built to handle modern fuels as well as more recent units, and are prone to leaking and other interesting failures. While I've yet to actually pull the unit itself out of the throttle body, a lot of the symptoms I've been reading about DO match up... poor performance and rough idle due to a weak mixture, strong smell of fuel in the engine bay (noticeable when running the cabin fan too). So I've managed to find me a place that'll do the cleaning on it for £12.50 (http://www.injectortune.co.uk) and I'll yank it out and send it off.

In case THAT doesn't work, I know I can get a replacement from MPD (Intermotor part) that'll drop straight in. Trouble is, that'll set me back 100 notes, which is a little more than I expected... anyone else have any idea where to grab the same unit for less? Ebay isn't helping much, so unless anyone has a spare one knocking about... well, that's my only other option.

So... watch this space, we may finally have it cracked. Or I'll crack. One or the other.
Never use another Cav driver as guidance to a destination, unless you REALLY want to explore the country.

"Won't SOMEBODY please think of the scones?"

1.7TD Ethos (Slightly broken)
1.8i (Given up, going for parts)
2.0i (WHY won't it work?!)
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Re: Cable's Thread of Ongoing Misery

Post by James McGrath »

Hopefully that will help.

I know injector tune offer a great service. Dan (Humbucker) recommended them to me years ago, still haven't sent mine off yet though.
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Re: Cable's Thread of Ongoing Misery

Post by Cabletwitch »

Aha, if they've got recommendation from the Mighty Bucker himself, then I'll certainly be flinging them off to their workshop very soon. Let's just hope it actually does the trick... The only issue so far is they've said they don't have the proper rig to be able to fully test that type of injector, but the cleaning and overhaul side should be viable. I'll keep tabs on the situation and let you guys know what occurs!
Never use another Cav driver as guidance to a destination, unless you REALLY want to explore the country.

"Won't SOMEBODY please think of the scones?"

1.7TD Ethos (Slightly broken)
1.8i (Given up, going for parts)
2.0i (WHY won't it work?!)
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Cabletwitch
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Re: Cable's Thread of Ongoing Misery

Post by Cabletwitch »

Well, it all ended with my tearing too much hair out and getting a nice 2.0i in better condition. You'll likely have seen it up for grabs in the For Sale section, she's free to a good home to be repaired or taken apart as whoever gets it see's fit to do so.

So now I have the fun times of making this one work better instead. I've already managed to identify a hissing vac line which is a good omen, but it looks pretty trivial to replace. The main problem is, I'm not sure which of the 2.0 series it is. I think I've got it narrowed down to the 20NE and the C20NE, but I'm still new to the whole identification thing... what would be an easy way to check? And would I be right in thinking the C stands for Catalytic? If so, that pins it down, and I can work from that.

Cheers guys, hopefully this one will do me better than before!
Never use another Cav driver as guidance to a destination, unless you REALLY want to explore the country.

"Won't SOMEBODY please think of the scones?"

1.7TD Ethos (Slightly broken)
1.8i (Given up, going for parts)
2.0i (WHY won't it work?!)
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Re: Cable's Thread of Ongoing Misery

Post by Robsey »

Yep - C is for catalyst.
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Re: Cable's Thread of Ongoing Misery

Post by James McGrath »

Just to confirm.
Your engine is defiantly the C20NE by the way.
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Re: Cable's Thread of Ongoing Misery

Post by Robsey »

If you pm me your car's VIN, I will see if it is recognised and if so, what the car's details are as detailed in the production option codes (POC codes) as created on the factory production line.

You can actually do this yourself by putting in your VIN on the ecat24 website.

It should also tell you your engine code on your V5C when it arrives.
Unless it has been changed like mine has.
(DVLA were informed but disregarded any changes - so my 2 litre Cav is still listed as 1.8).
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