Reluctant to start when fully warmed up

[Robsey]

Hi All,

My Cav is playing silly buggers at the moment.. it is the 1800 CFi (C18NZ) with 220,900 miles on the clock.

Three times in the past ten days, it has refused to start, almost flattening the battery when cranking.
This is only after I have run it for approx 20 to 30 mins or so.

I am of the opinion, that my coil (which is the original fitted in the factory) is on the way out, as it only happens when the car is at full operating temperature. I have seen similar articles on VODC with a dodgey Bosch coil being the culprit.

The failure to start occurs between 10 and 30 minutes after turning off the engine to visit a patient (work duties).

I've checked the plugs and leads, and all seem to be okay (clean leads caps and good plug electrode colour).

Anyway, if I leave the car for more than 30 mins to cool down, it then cranks better and fires up more readily.

The car runs smooth once started.

In the old days of carbs, I would have blamed heat soak in the fuel lines of the engine bay or in and around the inlet manifold / carb area.
I have not messed with anything and so there is nothing different with the fuel and exhaust side of things.

What do you reckon ?

Options are:-
1) Dodgey Coil or connections
2) Dodgey driver / poor maintenance
3) Heat soak in fuel lines
4) Poor earthing in / around the engine / starter

[Envoy CDX]

Options are:-
1) Dodgey Coil or connections
4) Poor earthing in / around the engine / starter

5) CTS sensor can also be a culprit. £10 from Vauxhall.

[Cavalier342]

I doubt it would be the earth points, if she starts fine from cold etc. Not sure about the heat soak issue, i have longer fuel lines in my C18NZ bay, and there is no starting issue whatsoever hot or cold. Not sure really, could be some stupid sensor or something. Quite stumped at this one
Andrei.

[Robsey]

Options are:-
1) Dodgey Coil or connections
4) Poor earthing in / around the engine / starter

5) CTS sensor can also be a culprit. £10 from Vauxhall.

Well as you know, I got a new CTS sensor in the late spring. The car starts from cold, and starts from warm...just doesn't like to start between 10 and 30 minutes after switching off from a reasonable length of run.

Early in the year, I had an issue with over sooting (Oxy Sensor was faulty) this caused the same issue. once replaced, this cured the fault. My plug electrodes are the correct tan colour.
There is no EML on the dash. And motorway cruising in fast, smooth and reasonably quiet.

6) Could it be my ignition amplifier under the coil going wonkey when the engine bay gets very warm.
On the road the engine bay would be cool due to general air-flow.

I doubt it would be the earth points, if she starts fine from cold etc. Not sure about the heat soak issue, i have longer fuel lines in my C18NZ bay, and there is no starting issue whatsoever hot or cold. Not sure really, could be some stupid sensor or something. Quite stumped at this one
Andrei.

If it is a sensor, then as said above...I have no warning from the EML.

[Envoy CDX]

Check your vaccum pipes are still intake and the air intake hose for splits
I have an intermittant issue on damp mornings where the car will cut out and refuses to start again unless I floor it (not good in traffic really)
you could try another amplifer but if its a fault its the wiring to andfrom rather than the unit I think - those things I've never seen fail, then again you do have mileage as another factor do the unit could be U/S or well on the way to being so..

[Gaz]

It could be coil related but thats a good £40 for new bits

its probably a fueling issue, if it does it again try taking the filler cap on to see if its pressurising the tank

But its probably cts/cts wiring.

[Robsey]

It could be coil related but thats a good £40 for new bits

its probably a fueling issue, if it does it again try taking the filler cap on to see if its pressurising the tank

But its probably cts/cts wiring.

I refuel every couple of days (put 10 litres in at a time) due to a very slight weaping of fuel through the tank seam.
Definately no hissing noise when I open the filler cap.

I would hope a CTS would last more than 4 or 5 months from new...it was a Vauxhall original part from Vx, Ellesmere Port....so not a cheap aftermarket part.

I said that about an Oxygen sensor that only lasted 18 months!!
(But then I don't know whether the other Oxy sensor was Vx original, or a naff aftermarket unit as my garage mechanic fitted it for my 2008 MOT.)

Regarding flooring the gas pedal...I tried this the other day, and it felt gut-less and just died....cranked it whilst applying no gas, and it started and ran...left it for about five seconds to settle and then gassed it...it revved fine and ran normally.

More head scratching . . . . . .

[Envoy CDX]

It could be coil related but thats a good £40 for new bits

its probably a fueling issue, if it does it again try taking the filler cap on to see if its pressurising the tank

But its probably cts/cts wiring.

I refuel every couple of days (put 10 litres in at a time) due to a very slight weaping of fuel yjrough the tank seam.
Definately no hissing noise when I open the filler cap.

I would hope a CTS would last more than 4 or 5 months from new...it was a Vauxhall original part from Vx, Ellesmere Port....so not a cheap aftermarket part.

I said that about an Oxygen sensor that only lasted 18 months!!
(But then I don't know whether the other Oxy sensor was Vx original, or a naff aftermarket unit as my garage mechanic fitted it for my 2008 MOT.)

Start checking the connectors on things, see if they get loose when warm?

[Robsey]

Start checking the connectors on things, see if they get loose when warm?

Not noticed anything...will check properly over the weekend,

however I have always had a screw loose...

[Envoy CDX]

Start checking the connectors on things, see if they get loose when warm?

Not noticed anything...will check properly over the weekend,

however I have always had a screw loose...

Tighten it then

[Robsey]

however I have always had a screw loose...

Tighten it then

All Torque and no action ? ?

[Envoy CDX]

however I have always had a screw loose...

Tighten it then

All Torque and no action ? ?

Sounds a bit like my ex

[Robsey]

All Torque and no action ? ?

Sounds a bit like my ex

That's why they're your ex....

(take it you noted the play on words - torque and talk).

To be honest, being single is so much cheaper and less stressful.
I remember having money may years ago when I was single...

[Envoy CDX]

All Torque and no action ? ?

Sounds a bit like my ex

That's why they're your ex....

(take it you noted the play on words - torque and talk).

To be honest, being single is so much cheaper and less stressful.
I remember having money may years ago when I was single...

So, what diagnostics have you done today on the wee beasty?
I'm single and still don't have money so..

[Robsey]

No diagnostics this weekend -

Just my usual domestic chores, and christmas present shopping - aaaaghhh!!

On workshop duties tomorrow, will have a butchers at lunch time.

Knowing me, it could be something as daft as my battery starting to fail, so insufficent cranking and ignition current.
I will get a new battery when funds permit.

[Envoy CDX]

No diagnostics this weekend -

Just my usual domestic chores, and christmas present shopping - aaaaghhh!!

On workshop duties tomorrow, will have a butchers at lunch time.

Knowing me, it could be something as daft as my battery starting to fail, so insufficent cranking and ignition current.
I will get a new battery when funds permit.

Drop test

[specks]

my old v6 had the same issue,does yours have a standard immobilisor,if it does,vx stuck it near the drivers side heater vent and once warm the contacts no longer make contact,but leave for a while to go cold and car once again starts,worth a look?

[Robsey]

my old v6 had the same issue,does yours have a standard immobilisor,if it does,vx stuck it near the drivers side heater vent and once warm the contacts no longer make contact,but leave for a while to go cold and car once again starts,worth a look?

Nope, mine has a Meta 85A, with additional ultra-sonics, full closure box (M8).
Despite being about 14 1/2 years old, the alarm and immobilizer work fine.

There is a barrel key on the back of the alarm head, which bypasses the whole alarm and immobilzer. Turning this to the bypass position makes no difference.

Drop test

Think we have a drop tester in the workshop somewhere

What confuses me though, is that there can be very little "get up and go" after a warm run...which to me should have charged the battery.
Also I am usually able to start the car first thing in the morning, despite the alarm being set all night. (car is usually left un-touched between 5:00 pm and 8:00 am).

I've looked at all my sensor and ignition circuit connectors, and all seems to be clean, dry and secure.

Car only appears to play up once a week, usually a wednesday, and usually mid-afternoon

[planetc]

Hi all, first post for me, an ex Vauxhall technician of Cavalier vintage, lol.
Ign module can give those symptoms, vey common on the c14nz in fact. Not a fortune to replace, if it were mine I'd start there. Assuming of course you have no spark when it won't start?

[Robsey]

I did consider the ignition amplifier, as I had to replace 2 on a Mk 2 Cavalier 13S engine (The amplifier was inside the distributor, and so was subject to a lot of heat from the engine).
On the C18NZ however the amplifier is on the passenger side inner wing, adjacent to the coil... so not really "In the thick of it" with regard to engine bay heat. But 16 yrs and 221,110 miles is quite a long time / distance for any component to survive.

An earlier thought was a possibly tired (8yr old) battery.
I find this very confusing...it was faffing freezing this morning yet the car cranked and started fine.
If it had been a tired battery, then I would think that it would have struggled with the frost.

After doing my domestic visits today, the dreaded wednesday afternoon thing attacked.
Car refused to start despite only being stopped for 20 minutes.
I had to push the car to the nearest down ramp, and bump start it.

Once running, it ran smooth, with no further problems with stops and starts.

It is always the same.
Park up after a longish "around town" drive at full operating temperature.
Get out and do a visit that lasts between 10 and 30 mins and the car is very sluggish to crank - will only start via a bump start. Or if I leave it longer to cool.

I'm sure heat is a factor, as I can do a 50 mile motorway trip and the car stops and starts fine. Do a long slow drive around town, and it plays up.

I am guessing that it could be either

a)The ignition amplifier playing up due to higher ambient temperatures.
or
b) The starter motor dragging too much current, when the engine is hot.

I will check all my starter leads tomorrow for clean and tight connections.


Also Planetc
Welcome to the forum
I'm sure you will be an absolute God-send on here then...

Any plans for an introduction and a look at your vehicle ?

[planetc]

Sluggish to crank? I missed that originally. Ign amp failing will just cause no spark, so cranking will be the same. Poor cranking would be battery, starter or wiring loom.
I agree with you regarding battery.
If you have access to a current clamp you could check starter current draw, off the top of my head I'd expect somewhere around 100amps ish give or take. If the starter is iffy it'll be double that or more.
Failing that volt drop the starter cable and engine earth.

Introduction, hmmm, suppose it'd be polite. Name is Paul, live in Bexhill On Sea. Have a late 1800LS Auto 5dr, in satin red. It was given to us four years ago by sister in law who lost the plot I think. I sourced it through the private ads for her a couple of years before that. It now has approx 80k on the clock and mechanically is superb. Trim is a little tired, although presentable and the paint is pretty battle scarred but it is solid, with only one small area of rot on the nsr arch. It's been sitting on my drive untouched for two years (used a bit like a second shed, lol). I have made some effort this week (hence my interest here) to revive it due to the failure of the timing pump on our Zafira, which is going to be neither cheap nor a quick fix.

[Robsey]

Sluggish to crank? I missed that originally. Ign amp failing will just cause no spark, so cranking will be the same. Poor cranking would be battery, starter or wiring loom.
I agree with you regarding battery.
If you have access to a current clamp you could check starter current draw, off the top of my head I'd expect somewhere around 100amps ish give or take. If the starter is iffy it'll be double that or more.
Failing that volt drop the starter cable and engine earth.

Introduction, hmmm, suppose it'd be polite. Name is Paul, live in Bexhill On Sea. Have a late 1800LS Auto 5dr, in satin red. It was given to us four years ago by sister in law who lost the plot I think. I sourced it through the private ads for her a couple of years before that. It now has approx 80k on the clock and mechanically is superb. Trim is a little tired, although presentable and the paint is pretty battle scarred but it is solid, with only one small area of rot on the nsr arch. It's been sitting on my drive untouched for two years (used a bit like a second shed, lol). I have made some effort this week (hence my interest here) to revive it due to the failure of the timing pump on our Zafira, which is going to be neither cheap nor a quick fix.

I think you missed the starter bit, because I didn't really mention it...

I sort of got side tracked on the non-start and heat idea rather than poor-crank and heat issue.

Despite what I know about my car, I always seem to look at anything but the obvious until I've made myself look a plonker by going around the houses, until it finally twigs...

Took me three weeks to realise that it would bump start, even though I had already bump started it twice !!

Regarding the intro, you could do with starting a new thread on the introductions section, or ask one of the mods / admin to cut and paste your comments above to start the thread for you.
Suppose that depends on how often you use forums etc, and whether you are comfortable to get yourself a presence upon here...

By the way - Thanks for your assistance... some times an old fool like me needs a little nudge in the correct direction.

[Envoy CDX]

Starter rebuild on the cards then?

[Robsey]

Starter rebuild on the cards then?

Yeah, I don't mind this kind of job, as I can unbolt it from the bell-housing, and then strip, clean and rebuild it in the warmth of my kitchen

I'll clean all my leads and terminals whilst I'm at it.

[toptune]

have you checked cylinder compression, when cold and warmed up