Reluctant to start when fully warmed up

[Robsey]

have you checked cylinder compression, when cold and warmed up

Did this about 5 months ago, when I had starting problems...
Compressions were within "Haynes Specification", and also within a small % of each other's values.

The problem back then was over fueling due to a faulty Oxy sensor.

The more I think about how and what is affected, the more I have to blame an old battery and a faulty / dirty starter or it's connections.

[Envoy CDX]

Starter rebuild on the cards then?

Yeah, I don't mind this kind of job, as I can unbolt it from the bell-housing, and then strip, clean and rebuild it in the warmth of my kitchen

I'll clean all my leads and terminals whilst I'm at it.

Excellent I'll drop my spare off and you can rebuild that next time I see you It's sat on the floor of my old shed for 2-3 years..
Seriously though, hope it works for you:)

[Robsey]

Dependent upon the weather... because I'm a soft-arse geriatric who feels the cold.

I plan to do this tomorrow (sunday).

Sure someone will ask me to provide pics and a how 2, if it all works!!

Or does one already exist ?

[Envoy CDX]

Dependent upon the weather... because I'm a soft-arse geriatric who feels the cold.

I plan to do this tomorrow (sunday).

Sure someone will ask me to provide pics and a how 2, if it all works!!

Or does one already exist ?

Get a How2 up if you get the chance Rob, I haven't seen one for rebuilding / refurbing a starter motor

[Robsey]

Okey Dokey...

Will see what I can do

[Envoy CDX]

[Robsey]

Well the starter was swimming in engine oil, due to a leaking rear crank seal.

Image043.jpg (66.69 KiB) Viewed 482 times

Couldn't strip the solenoid from the starter...the No2 Posi-drive screws were solid in their holes.

I did notice that the connector on the starter for the big red lead that goes to the battery and the alternator had corrosion on it.
The cores inside the connector were orange with rust -so must be steel wire conductors... definately not pinkish coper cores.

Image045.jpg (47.1 KiB) Viewed 482 times

So I will need to find a clean, corrosion free, new heavy gauge wire to replace it.

And a new battery of course.

[Envoy CDX]

Progress all the same
Off to Arnell, or Maplins for the thick gauge wire?

[Gaz]

I might have some kicking round the garage, it might be chav amp cable but it should do it.

[Envoy CDX]

I might have some kicking round the garage, it might be chav amp cable but it should do it.

Best use for it too...

[Robsey]

I would probably "Piggy Back" the new cables with the existing old two-stage cable...just so that I know that there will be adequate current carrying capcity from the cables.
(two-stage = from battery to starter, then starter to alternator - joined at the starter crimp-on loop.)

[Envoy CDX]

I would probably "Piggy Back" the new cables with the existing old two-stage cable...just so that I know that there will be adequate current carrying capcity from the cables.
(two-stage = from battery to starter, then starter to alternator - joined at the starter crimp-on loop.)

Not if the original lead is corroded badly I wouldn't.

[planetc]

current will take the path of least resistance, unlikely to matter much as long as you don't try it with cheese.

[Envoy CDX]

current will take the path of least resistance, unlikely to matter much as long as you don't try it with cheese.

Hmmm make and engine out of cheese ....

[Robsey]

I would probably "Piggy Back" the new cables with the existing old two-stage cable...just so that I know that there will be adequate current carrying capcity from the cables.
(two-stage = from battery to starter, then starter to alternator - joined at the starter crimp-on loop.)

Not if the original lead is corroded badly I wouldn't.

Well there is still some current getting through, as the car starts 90% of the time... Just fails when I try to start-up between my last visit, and going home...On a Wednesday Afternoon.

I discussed this thing about corrosion with my electronics engineer friend, and he assured me that if the wires are tightly crimped into the loop connector, then where the metals are pressed together, there should be bright metal...ish
However my friend did not take into account of cappillary action of the corrosive moisture.
So much for aerospace electronic engineers - ha ha

[Envoy CDX]

I would probably "Piggy Back" the new cables with the existing old two-stage cable...just so that I know that there will be adequate current carrying capcity from the cables.
(two-stage = from battery to starter, then starter to alternator - joined at the starter crimp-on loop.)

Not if the original lead is corroded badly I wouldn't.

Well there is still some current getting through, as the car starts 90% of the time... Just fails when I try to start-up between my last visit, and going home...On a Wednesday Afternoon.

I discussed this thing about corrosion with my electronics engineer friend, and he assured me that if the wires are tightly crimped into the loop connector, then where the metals are pressed together, there should be bright metal...ish
However my friend did not take into account of cappillary action of the corrosive moisture.
So much for aerospace electronic engineers - ha ha

Some wire, and new connectors, crimp em up and job jobbed

[planetc]

Think my money would be on the starter though with all that oily gunk all over it.

[Robsey]

Think my money would be on the starter though with all that oily gunk all over it.

You've been on the money so far with your responses on other threads, so I am inclined to consider your suggestion seriously.

As you may know, it is wednesday today, and the "Non-start" thing happened again...

Embarrassingly outside Gaz's house. Luckily, I don't think he noticed.

Again it was my last stop of the day before going home.
There is a definate "wingle wangle" pattern here.

I have been keeping a gel-sealed 12V wheelchair battery in the boot incase it was my battery being knackered.

I connected up the fully charged chair battery to jump start the car.

It took about 20 seconds of cranking before the car would start.

So I am totally flummocksed...

So here are the symptoms

When the car is hot (approx 95 degrees), the car struggles to crank and appears like the battery is almost flat.
It will bump start and fire up straight away.
With a fresh battery, it will start, but after about 20 seconds of cranking.

The car struggles only between 10 and 30 minutes after turning off the engine - after an around town drive.... feels like heat soak.

It ALWAYS happens on a wednesday afternoon / evening, and it is ALWAYS the last start-up of the day before going home... How Bizarre

Regarding the oil, this is because my rear crank seal is completely tatered.

Also the heavy gauge power cables are readily available ready made from Halfords at approx £6 a throw. Would need to buy two...one to the alternator and one to the battery.

[planetc]

....if adding a second battery helped that backs up the case for a starter fault. A battery will not fail under these circumstances, if the cables were iffy then it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference. What generally happens when a starter is turning over slowly is that it is drawing excessive current, to a point that the battery cannot supply enough. If you give the starter the extra current it is seeking then it will improve, and sometimes even turn over normally. I've seen starters that would normally draw 100a actually pull 700a before they will work and given a booster pack and a set of jump leads off another car they will in fact sometimes still work. It's all that oil that's probably killed it. Don't faff about anymore, put a starter on it, a used one is probably only gonna be a tenner.

[Robsey]

Cheers again Paul...

I was faffing, because I was of the niaive belief that if the starter works "Most" of the time, then it must be okay...
Obviously not!!

I do know my battery is getting on a bit, and in need of changing before the hard frosts of winter set in.
Just a bit wary on throwing money that I don't really have, at the car before it's MOT at the end of November.

I just don't understand this "Last Trip on a Wednesday" routine... never happens at any other time.
Obviously just a total coincidence, or my Mojo playing up.

[planetc]

I just don't understand this "Last Trip on a Wednesday" routine... never happens at any other time.
Obviously just a total coincidence, or my Mojo playing up.

heat expands things, probably the only time it gets hot enough to be an issue, if you are in doubt get yourself a current clamp and measure the draw on it when it is in a fault condition

[Gaz]

Its the starter, as been stated above sounds like my vectra, the starting got very lazy and eventually died when i was on the way to view the current cav.

For the record you could have knocked on if you were having issues i just wanted to get back in so i could get a bath and get cleaned up.

[Robsey]

Its the starter, as been stated above sounds like my vectra, the starting got very lazy and eventually died when i was on the way to view the current cav.

For the record you could have knocked on if you were having issues i just wanted to get back in so i could get a bath and get cleaned up.

Yeah, I know gaz, but being a typical stubborn male, I just got out my piggy back battery and connected up... like I say it only took about 20 seconds of further cranking before it started.

If it had failed to start, I may well have knocked on, but I hate being a mythering get

Thanks for everything btw

I've got a late start tomorrow, so I will get a starter from one of the scrap-yards in Bury. there was a C18NZ in Autosave about a month ago.