C20NE swap issues - no spark or fuel, won't start.

[andeben]

...

but not the 87-87b.

That was the wrong pins. Re-tested using 85b-87 and the relay clicked. I still need to check the resistance though.

[andeben]

Fuel pump relay resistances tested and ok. I did some voltmeter tests and got the following.

85b-87 - 0V ignition on, 0V during starting
86-85 - 12.3V ignition on, 9.5V during starting
85b to battery ground 12.29V

I also ran 12V direct to 87b and the fuel pump was working.



I also now have the starter in from the donor car and the instrumental panel dims during sarting. I don't recall completely if the other starter did that but I think so.

Any ideas folks? Much appreciated.

[andeben]

So, I've given up frustrated for the weekend on this.
As far as I can tell all the grounds are ok - I've checked resistances between the battery, chassis and motor, and grounds to the ECU. I tried grounding the feed from the ECU cable to the fuel pump relay, with the ignition on, which activated the pump. I also checked that the ECU is getting 12V, which it is.

So, at the moment I'm thinking it might be the ECU - I'm not sure how to test that.

It's also possible that both starter motors are duff - I've not been able to check them extensively but they are both old and the cold weather might be taxing them too far. I might get a new starter just to rule that out. I'm not really sure if that would resolve the lack of fuel and spark but if it's affecting the ECU operation it might.

Learning as I go here. I have a feeling it's something straightforward, I just don't know what!

[Robsey]

Okay - back to basics.

Is the battery a good one?
Lights dimming on cranking usually point to an old weak battery.

You have checked all grounds - okay

You have got the fuel pump running and fuel is being issued. - okay

Really stupid comment here - is fuse 11 fitted and okay.?

The last non-start thread that I read was due to a damaged loom.
I presume yours is okay.?

Slow starter - ??? Weak battery or dirty / insecure wiring.

Regarding the ECU - it is worth trying another... I would still recommend a GE coded unit or similar M1.5 or M1.5.2

[andeben]

Good idea You noticed I've started going round in circles

Battery charged each night and checked with new battery tester (thought that was a better investment at this point). 100% life and 98% charge apparently. It's not that new though if that has any say.

Fuel pump, relay and associated wiring ok. Fuse 11 I've had out when checking the relay and pump circuit - now back in and confirmed not blown.

Loom seems ok as far as I can tell. I don't see any signs of exposed wires etc.

Connections to starter are ok too I think. I did the voltage drop tests which would have flagged an issue there I think.

Not much I can do about the ECU. Is there any way to check it's actually alive?

Thanks for the help was hoping the 'getting it to start' part was going to be simple - I still have a bunch of other things that need sorted.

[Cavalier342]

Have you tried a compression test on the engine? Silly question but worth a shot, isn't it?

Nice profile photo by the way.

[andeben]

I tested it in the donor car when it was still running and it was fine. And the donor wasn't driven anywhere so no reason to suspect there could be a problem there (I think/hope). I could have a check now it's in though - although if the starter is kakk that might give a false reading (?)

Cheers - was a while ago now but the plan was to be doing that again in February. Otherwise I'll have to take my Mondeo and nobody wants that

[colin1]

...It's also possible that both starter motors are duff - I've not been able to check them extensively but they are both old and the cold weather might be taxing them too far. I might get a new starter just to rule that out. I'm not really sure if that would resolve the lack of fuel and spark but if it's affecting the ECU operation it might...

I think you would have to be extremely unfortunate to be in possession of two duff starter motors, you also mentioned starting the engine while it was in the donor car with no problems; I'm not sure what could have happened to it between removal, sitting on a bench and installation in the new setup that would cause it to go duff. Cold weather doesn't tax starter motors, it taxes batteries with the inherent knock-on affecting the starter motor only indirectly. Yes, it could be that the starter motor is duff itself but we've just covered how unfortunate you'd need to be to be in possession of two. If you've confirmed the starter from the donor vehicle is sound (which I think you did) I'd go with that. A new one will not resolve issues with fuelling and/or spark

Couple of suggestions based on no-fuel-no-spark issues I've seen in the past:

Have you swapped out the fuel pump relay for the one in the donor? It might be as simple as that. When you turn the key to the first stop, does the relay click over?

Is the crank sensor fully inserted at the block end and is there a chance it's become partially dislodged at the loom end?

[andeben]

The donor starter has made a noise since I got the donor car, although it did start the donor engine, before that died. So I went with my original in the first instance. In my mind it is possible they are both duff. I'd like the car to be a daily driver really, so buying a new starter might not be such a bad thing. I've put a lot of time and fair bit of money into the car already so I can probably justify it to myself somehow

I have tried swapping out the fuel pump relay for the donor car one. Both relays are ok (12V click tested and resistance checked both). The issue seems to be that the ground signal (to 85b on the relay) is not coming from the ECU and activating the fuel pump relay circuit. Seems that way to me anyway - the relay is clicking with ignition on, but since it's a double affair I think only one side is activating (ref my voltage measurements and picture).

I double checked the crank sensor today, taking it out, putting it back in and also checking the ground and 5V - everything seems ok. I also made sure it was connected fully.

[Robsey]

I thought I'd mentioned it already, but can't see it -
Are your fuel pipes fitted the correct way round.?
(Feed and return).

If fitted wrong, the fuel will not be getting into the throttle body.

[andeben]

Good question. I will double check tomorrow.

[Robsey]

I have updated my C20NE installation How 2, to include the ECU pin out.

I hope it helps.

viewtopic.php?f=70&t=6685&p=154668#p154668

[andeben]

Thanks Robsey. Reading the link below (relay section) this explains that the pump relay is only activated for a second - which seems to back up the results I was getting (guess you probably knew that but new to me).

http://www.cardiagnostics.be/-now/Tech2 ... cML4.1.pdf

Will check the lines (properly this time) tonight - fingers crossed that might be it.

[andeben]

The feed line is connected directly to the rail and the return is connected to the pipe adjacent to the rail with the slightly longer 'nose'. That's correct as far as I understand - someone please correct me if not. I tried it the other way around for the sake of it but that made no difference and also meant the pipes crossing over each other from the bulkhead which looked weird.

I think my next port of call is to verify whether the ECU is alive. I feel like I've checked just about everything else.

Any more ideas please shout!

[andeben]

I just tested whether the ECU is triggering the fuel pump for a second when the ignition goes on - it isn't. So, I'm concluding for the moment that it's the ECU and have ordered the same kind off ebay. Looks like it'll take a week to get to Norway so I'll try to resolve some of my brake issues in the meantime.

Still looking a bit doubtful that I'll make the ice driving on 6th Feb but keeping my fingers crossed and will keep at it.

Thanks for the input so far all

[andeben]

Got it Started today, hooray Thanks for the help folks.

Short story: I'd connected it up wrong.

Long Story:

The spare ECU arrived, which I tried and it made no difference. I still couldn't see that the fuel pump was going on for a second with the ignition, which I'm sure it's meant to (still not sure) - so went back to check the voltage at the crank sensor. In doing this I released that the crank position sensor connection is exactly the same as the throttle position sensor and I had connected the crank sensor to the throttle position loom. This looked correct and even seemed to line up with the looms from the donor - I had assumed I had misplaced a connecting loom to the throttle position sensor (and also assumed that such connections would be idiot proof and not exactly the same).

Extremely frustrating to have spent so much time on this, when it could have been avoided by some simple labeling (which I had contemplated doing) or decent pictures. On the plus side I now feel like I know a lot more about the car, have a spare ECU and still have a chance of getting the car back on the road in time (watch this space).

Cheers
Ben

[Robsey]

Excellent news - good to see you sussed it out.