C20NE swap issues - no spark or fuel, won't start.

[andeben]

Hi all. Trying to get my 8v 4x4 back on the road and am having trouble getting it to start with the replacement engine in. The replacement was ok but had stopped running for some reason before I took it out - only thing I had done was take out the ECU. Since I only had time over the christmas holiday to do the swap I didn't spend time trying to diagnose the issue on the donor car. So my issue now may be new due to the swap or carried over from the donor. Here's where I'm at just now - any help appreciated.

1995 C20NE engine into 1989 car with Motronic ML4.1 ECU.

1989 car has been standing outside for almost 2 years and has damp/mildew. However, it did start and was driven into garage for the swap. I did have a round with a steam cleaner once it was in the garage now that I think about it which might not have been such a good idea looking back. Anyway:

Loom, ECU, throttle body and coil from 1989 car.
Battery ok (85% life & fully charged)
Slow cranking
No Spark
No fuel
Lights dimming when cranking
Engine rotating
Plugs, rotor arm distributor cap, HT leads - previously working but not new. Have tried sets from both engines.
Starter motor voltage drop test power circuit OK (<0.9V)
Starter motor voltage drop test ground circuit OK (<0.9V)
Crank sensor swapped for known previously working one
Earth strap to gearbox present but may not be as large as it should be
12V going to ECU
5V going to Crank sensor
Connections to coil cleaned
No noticeable poor connections or corrosion anywhere
Signal/current to coil - TBC
Starter current draw - TBC
Voltage to fuel pump - TBC
Voltage to fuel pump relay - TBC

Any help and suggestions greatly appreciated!

Cheers
Ben

[Robsey]

The most obvious is the Crank Angle Sensor low down on the front of the engine near the power steering pump.

These notoriously get knocked out of alignment during engine swaps.

It happened to me back in 2011, when I swapped from C18NZ to C20NE.

Remove it, clean it and put it back in.
Worked for me

[andeben]

Thanks Robsey. I already tried swapping the '95 sensor for the '89 one though (which was working) and that didn't help...

I forgot to mention the alternator is from the '95 car if that has any say.

[colin1]

Reading your post, I'm not really sure what's been swapped with what

It's not a transponder issue is it?

[andeben]

Which part isn't clear Colin and could be relevant?

How would I find out if it's transponder or immobiliser related? ECU is from the '89 car as is the key.

[colin1]

This subject isn't my strong hand by a long way

The code in the old ECU will need to match the code in the CIM (command interface module) and BCM (body control module).

The CIM sits behind the steering wheel interacting with the ignition barrel, the BCM controls things like electric windows, central locking and immobiliser system.

I believe donor parts can be reprogrammed to match the ECU via OPCOM but I've got no idea how to do that.

[andeben]

Not sure I quite follow. The donor engine has gone into the 89 car (the one I'm putting back on the road) and I am keeping the ECU and almost everything else from the '89 car. It's really only the alternator that is also from the donor (in addition to the actual engine). I was thinking maybe the ECU had gone into an immobilised state or something.

Any further help appreciated folks.

[Cavalier342]

I'm not sure if I missed it or not but which engine was in the 89 car before the swap? Was it the same engine code?

[andeben]

Both C20NE - apologies, wasn't clear on that bit. Was thinking everyone had seen my other posts on what I was doing

[Robsey]

This subject isn't my strong hand by a long way

The code in the old ECU will need to match the code in the CIM (command interface module) and BCM (body control module).

The CIM sits behind the steering wheel interacting with the ignition barrel, the BCM controls things like electric windows, central locking and immobiliser system.

I believe donor parts can be reprogrammed to match the ECU via OPCOM but I've got no idea how to do that.

Sounds like you are describing a Vectra-C between 2002 and 2008.

Cavaliers do not have CIMs (Collumn Integrated module) nor BCMs.
And Opcom is totally useless for any pre-1997 vehicles.
Well one Cavalier has a CIM and BCM - Mine

For any opcom / Vauxcom / auto3m / ilexa info - feel free to ask

I have to query the firmware too.
Motronic M4.1?

My two modules (Alpha Code GE) are firmware M1.5 and later versions should probably be M1.5.2.

[Cavalier342]

Ah I see, if they're the same engines, then there shouldn't be an issue with ECU or anything, just double-check that you've plugged everything in correctly and go from there.

[andeben]

I'm fairly sure the firmware is right Robsey. The ECU has two rows of pins and I've been working off an ML4.1 diagram which seems to match up. I'll double check though.

I did a few more checks this evening and I seem to be getting 12V to the coil with the ignition on. I also think the coil is OK as I did the resistance checks from the Haynes manual previously. From what I could tell the fuel pump relay and input/outputs were also ok with the ignition on.

Is it possible the starter is drawing too much current thereby not allowing the rest of the system to operate? Would anything other than a dodgy starter be causing that? Might explain the lights dimming during starting too?

Fairly new to me all this so all help still appreciated. I was hoping to have the car on the road by the end of the month!

[Robsey]

Dimming lights usually means a weak battery,
but you could check that all your earth wires are clean and securely fitted.

And same with your battery and starter terminals.

[Robsey]

Just checked -

Motronic ML4.1 -
Vehicles fitted with this are -
Opel Kadett E / Astra mk2 and Belmont with 20SEH, 20SER or 20NE engines.
And
Opel Senator 30LE

I can confirm that -
M1.5 is used on -
Cavalier with 20NE, C20NE and 20SEH

And M1.5.2 is used on -
Later Cavalier C20NE.

Okay - re-thinking...
When I swapped engines - it too had been stood for a couple of years.
I flattened the battery twice cranking the engine whilst it built up compressions.
Eventually it did fire up, and this gradually got better and smoother once full compressions were achieved.

the worrying bit is that it died before removal.

Have you checked the fuel pump relay ?

I am sure that I sound like I am just guessing, but I am just going through all the usual causes.

Hmm -
Parts on donor engine -
Plugs, leads, dizzy cap and rotor,
Earth strap, crank angle sensor,
Belt timing / condition.
Engine compressions not built up yet.

Transplant -
Wire not connected somewhere -
Multiple ground wires.
black ignition live wire from X5 connector to coil.

coincidence -
Fuel pump relay faulty?

[andeben]

The Bosch part number for my ECU is 0 261 200 131. Which is ML4.1 according to this website: http://www.scribd.com/doc/95781651/OPEL ... nic#scribd . I think the Haynes manual was saying that too.

I'll re-check some of the things mentioned. The engine was only not running for a very short time before I took it out of the donor btw (like a few weeks).

Thanks for the help so far all

[colin1]

Sounds like you are describing a Vectra-C between 2002 and 2008...

Highly likely
I've never found Cavalier immobilisers to be anything other than problematic.
When one of them did it's 'unscheduled immobilise' in the middle of nowhere, I got the AA guy out (a Swedish guy funnily enough) and just told him to disconnect it.
It took him a while but I didn't regret it, being more than happy to take the hit on vehicle security.

I never really gave myself the chance to get to grips with them, not something I lose much sleep over

[andeben]

Just finished testing the fuel pump relay. I got the 85-86 part to activate but not the 87-87b. First time I've done this so happy my test method seemed to work. Hopefully changing it out will help, fingers crossed.

Something that might not be helping is that it's feckin cold over here just now. -14C outside and not much above 0C in the garage. Doesn't help the motivation either!

[Cavalier342]

The coldest I've ever been in is around -32C in my hometown in Russia. Can't say I remember it because when you're that young, it doesn't stay in your memory. But I know what you mean about cold and lack of motivation, the thought of doing any sort of bodywork or fiddly bits in the cold is enough to make me want to crack open a Special Brew and hide away..

[andeben]

Hopefully the temperature won't go down too much more - I'm not in the North or mountains. It'll be worth it if I make it to this:
http://www.opelmotorsport.com/treffprog ... reff&id=97

[colin1]

Hei, hvordan har de det?

What part of Norway are you from?

[andeben]

He, he. Så flink. Bare bra untatt denne jævla bilen .
I'm from UK (Edinburgh area) but moved to Norway about 9 years ago. I live in Tønsberg

[colin1]

...Bare bra untatt denne jævla bilen...

Don't worry, you'll sort it eventually

I'm just trying to think what bokmal sounds like with a jock accent...

[colin1]

Ah I see, if they're the same engines, then there shouldn't be an issue with ECU or anything...

Surely
from an immobiliser point of view, being the same engines wouldn't be enough? All a thief needs then is a key that fits

[Robsey]

Vauxhall only fitted the "Engine Deadlock Immobiliser" in the final model year - So from about October 1994 to 1995.

My August 1994 did not have any alarm or immobiliser. I had a Toad / Meta Thatcham unit fitted in April 1996 to fend off pesky thieves.

So as we are using an 89 ECU, an immobiliser would not be fitted from the factory.

[andeben]

Sounds right Robsey - the car does have some security thing on it so I can't say for 100% that's not doing something but it's never been an issue before. I agree there is no dedicated immobiliser line into the ECU.

What's the issue with multiple grounds?