Vauxhall Senator

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cavalier1990
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Vauxhall Senator

Post by cavalier1990 »

Thought I'd post this one up as I am doing a bit of work on it just now and have quite a few pics.

Well here's what happened late last year -the Engine cooked due to water pump impeller shearing in 3 bits while I was coming home. Luckily engine block and head on straight six is cast iron so less worries about warping - hopefully!.

I firstly suspected head gasket and tested with block tester because there was oodles of pressure building up really quickly in the system, which confirmed the problem. However on inspection the gasket rings look ok with no blow by. Hopefully the head hasn't warped when it was heating up and letting gas into the coolant.

Add in to that that I was rebuilding my cavy that I wanted to get on the road before anything else so this just lay until I had time to get to it. I stripped head and water pump off, and while this is off I decided to fix some of the rust around the chassis leg and lower crossmember as well while the head and manifold is out of the way.

Today I was cutting out any rot and treating any rust I found around this area. All being said it was pretty bad but I expected this anyway as had more or less neglected it for quite a while before decided to get to it.

Anyhoo, here's some pics to feast on just now. This 3.0 model has the goldseal engine, which is the big valve heads they put in for the cats, and I put straight through pipes where the cats were as it's age is actually before the cats are required for law. It goes like stink :):

Picture before I took water pump out but had removed viscous fan
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This engine is Cam in Head and has double timing chains driving the cam sprocket. You actually have to lift the head up and over the camshaft sprocket as there is a support plate below it. Believe me when I say the head weighs probably about the same as a small 1.0 liter engine. I had to put blocks of wood under it and progressively lift it up to clear the timing chains, then "pole vault" it up on it's end with a big block of wood on the battery tray acting as a support for one end of the head, then bear hug it to lift it out.
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The pump impeller in 3 bits.
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Cylinder head after cleaning and valve bedding in with grinding paste
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This is looking straight down sort of where the power steering pump and the inner chassis leg would be - literally! About half of the top of it I cut off due to rust, so what you can see is actually the bottom half of the chassis leg where the subframe bolts on to.

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Robsey
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Re: Vauxhall Senator

Post by Robsey »

Excellent work so far...
I presume you have managed to get all the impeller blades out and accounted for.

Would be a major head ache for a blade to surface inside the engine after the rebuild.

Nice to see work on one of the older 'battle barges'.
I believe the straight sixes are bomb proof (within realistic expectations).

You do love your car de-rusting projects don't you. :)
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Mk3alan
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Re: Vauxhall Senator

Post by Mk3alan »

Good work, those big old Vauxhall are great.
Didn't production of these continue purely for Police use?

Alan
cavalier1990
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Re: Vauxhall Senator

Post by cavalier1990 »

Robsey wrote:Excellent work so far...
I presume you have managed to get all the impeller blades out and accounted for.

Would be a major head ache for a blade to surface inside the engine after the rebuild.

Nice to see work on one of the older 'battle barges'.
I believe the straight sixes are bomb proof (within realistic expectations).

You do love your car de-rusting projects don't you. :)
Yes Robsey, and it goes with the territory living in Rainy Kilt-land!

luckily the 3 broken impeller bits click together without any "ominously" missing bits! Think it is aftermarket pump as the impeller is plastic (Super glue anyone?) but got OE replacement one that has metal blades.

I think they are pretty much bomb proof considering the amount of tanking I gave it with pretty much no attention. I think it would have been ok if it wasn't for that pump! Maybe a good thing in a way as it means I get to fix the rust and hopefully make the engine a slightly bit nippier!

Cheers

Andrew
cavalier1990
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Re: Vauxhall Senator

Post by cavalier1990 »

Mk3alan wrote:Good work, those big old Vauxhall are great.
Didn't production of these continue purely for Police use?

Alan
They are Alan but as usual with any VX bodywork longevity is piss poor. However give it it's dues it is 25 years old!

Not sure if the production run was continued for police Alan but I know the theyused a lot of them. Salivating at the thought of 24V manual police spec now :D

Cheers

Andrew
cavalier1990
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Re: Vauxhall Senator

Post by cavalier1990 »

Had to remove front crossmember due to rust. Decided it just wasn't worth fixing each corner. It also meant I could get in and fix N/S lower of the chassis leg. Then I can hopefully garner a new one and replace it.

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James McGrath
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Re: Vauxhall Senator

Post by James McGrath »

Good work. :thumb

Do you have any pictures of the whole car by the way?
cavalier1990
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Re: Vauxhall Senator

Post by cavalier1990 »

James McGrath wrote:Good work. :thumb

Do you have any pictures of the whole car by the way?
Not yet James....I will try and get some soon though.
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Re: Vauxhall Senator

Post by cavalier1990 »

Wee update on my senny. Copied from ABS board.

Since my past report not much had been done to the car due to weather and being bone idle over the winter. Now that we have what looks like some sort of better weather and I am off on holidays I decided to get stuck in. I managed to locate a GM crossmember, according to parts guy it was last one available. This was rubbed down and painted with zinc primer then painted with top coat to protect from rusting again.

The front section where the crossmember sits was still messy and needy a bit of a tidy up to accommodate the part easily, plus some other work was required around there inc. a little bit more welding and prep before welding this on.

Then my welder started to play funny buggars, not feeding wire out very well. I think the little feed wheel is maybe worn, or the wire was maybe a bit dirty from storage. Anyway, managed to get it going just enough to get a weld. The crossmember is now on, sealed up and sprayed the welds with zinc primer to stop any corrosion until painted with top coat.

N/S of Crossmember
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OS Crossmember
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Full view pic. I can stand on it and jump up and down and it stays on so thumbs up!
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Onto the next bit of work. The inlet manifold was looking decidedly sorry for itself, so I got the electric wire brush out and gave it a good clean up. I also down the exhaust manifolds and the stat housing, which incidentally is looking rather porous around the pipe sleeves. Will be seeking a new one in due course I think.

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Dirty manifold
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Clean manifold
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Clean manifold again
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And final piece of work was to get the head back on. Had to give it a bit of a clean up on the face as a little bit of rust was starting from storage. Next step was to fashion up a lifting support from a nice rope I had. I utilised the holes at either end of the head to loop rope through and create a cradle with the rope. Then me and 2 others lifted it into place. Once in engine bay it went on ok apart from the back hose for the heater got caught between head and bulkhead.

Once this was done the head was still sitting slightly atop the dowels so I moved it around a few mls and clunk, in it went. I remembered to replace the little seal right at the front left of the block. Whatever is this for as both holes are blanked off?

I don't have the cam pulley on yet, do that tomorrow. The final bit for tonight was to run in the new head bolts. The right hand 3rd from the back bolt would not catch, despite all others going in easily enough. Obviously at this point I could feel my stomach sink like the titanic! I did think the right hand bolts were a bit tighter so I decided to tap the head to the right a bit with a rubber mallet and also tap the head bolt down, thinking that maybe a bit of the gasket was catching it. After that it went in ok - phew don't want to take that head back off again!

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cavalier1990
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Re: Vauxhall Senator

Post by cavalier1990 »

This was not the end of the story however, when fixing the head bolts down this happened:

I've put the head back on, everything seemed ok until I got to putting cam sprocket back on. I put cam back on to the little locating dimple, using 2 screwdrivers in 2 bottom bolt holes to lift it up, then put on top cam bolt, removed screwdrivers from bottom bolt holes and then put in the other two bolts and tightened it.

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Now the cam won't budge and the engine is locked. I don't remember any spacers or anything behind the cam sprocket, but this isn't right. When you look down the back of the sprocket it is flat against the casting. Engine moved freely when cam sprocket wasn't on. The bottom of the engine still does move slightly but when it hits the chain tension it can't move the cam.

Then this happened:

I had another look at this and tried again to turn it, this time it moved but was very stiff and then loose, then jam again. I could turn it back easier than forward and at a certain point it would jam. I could hear a click from the cam area thinking maybe a sticky tappet or something so loosened all the followers right off. While I was doing that I had a look down the hole where the head bolt goes and spotted the problem. Somehow the bolts on the N/S of the engine, the short ones, have jammed against the side of the cam, causing the cam to rub on the bolts. I ran the bolts in but never tightened then all fully yet. Lucky I didn't.

If you look closely the cam has a ring round it where the bolt has been rubbing. They all have this freshly scraped ring at the bolt area:
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So that was the outcome of that! I am phased why the bolts wouldn't go right down, it was the shorter bolts I was using, they were same as old ones etc. Then Derek from GM6 got back to me with this:

undo the cam sprocket. Turn the cam around until the dowel is at 12 o'clock. The rebates in the cam will then allow you to do up the cylinder head bolts. Then make sure the crankshaft is at TDC (the keyway for the pulley will be at 12 o'clock and any timing marks on the flywheel will line up (visible through hole in back of engine block flange). Slacken off the chain tensioner on r side of timing casing. Then you can assemble the chain and sprocket. All this is detailed in any Haynes manual for any car with the CIH engine

Basically there are grooves cut out of the cam that allow the bolts to slide past the cam but top sprocket key has to be at 12 o clock, not 6 o clock like mine. Result - struggle to get bolts right into their housing. I now know why the old ones were a bit sticky to come out!
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Robsey
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Re: Vauxhall Senator

Post by Robsey »

What a pain...
Hopefully you have only polished the cams with the bolt incursions, and not scored into them.

I haven't worked on a Cam In Head engine since the early nineties.
My friend'sManta GTE 2.0 CIH was a nice car to work on. Those heads and blocks were stupid heavy though.

Had a unique noise when ticking over, I seem to recall.

Looks crazy seeing 12 rockers in a row...

Looking forward to the next episode...
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James McGrath
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Re: Vauxhall Senator

Post by James McGrath »

I always thought the CIH engines were a good and interesting design.

Nice midway point between ease of service and engine performance and unique to Vauxhall/Opel.
cavalier1990
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Re: Vauxhall Senator

Post by cavalier1990 »

Robsey wrote:What a pain...
Hopefully you have only polished the cams with the bolt incursions, and not scored into them.

I haven't worked on a Cam In Head engine since the early nineties.
My friend'sManta GTE 2.0 CIH was a nice car to work on. Those heads and blocks were stupid heavy though.

Had a unique noise when ticking over, I seem to recall.

Looks crazy seeing 12 rockers in a row...

Looking forward to the next episode...
Looks ok the cam only has slight scuff not ground in mark. Only first 2 and one at back were like this I had originally said all were scuffed.

Yes the head is insanely heavy on this one, especially with manifolds both still attached. I could just lift it with my own strength so it must be a good 6 stone or more. Basically the weight of a block, easily.

I think mantas were common for that tickover noise, more than likely as most of them had been rag dolled by boy racers!
cavalier1990
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Re: Vauxhall Senator

Post by cavalier1990 »

James McGrath wrote:I always thought the CIH engines were a good and interesting design.

Nice midway point between ease of service and engine performance and unique to Vauxhall/Opel.
I do like the design myself, not that it is easier or harder to work on, just that it is unique to opel, and is well known for hardiness. VX had their own straight 6 overhead valve and was used in the old cresta although was no match for the opel straight 6.
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Re: Vauxhall Senator

Post by cavalier1990 »

Some more pics of latest work

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cavalier1990
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Re: Vauxhall Senator

Post by cavalier1990 »

Wee update to this. The engine is now running. I had to make up an engine oil shield to put round the cam cover as you have to adjust tappets with cam cover off. Very exciting stuff!

It seems to be running quite well and engine is very happy with it's new water pump and head recon and skim. In saying that there is quite a bit of patching up to the bodywork to be done before I put it anywhere near an MOT station. Not so much welding but just bits that look awful. Although in truth some bits like the wheelarches need totally renewed if I am honest.

Here it is running with my "devised from an old ikea clip together storage box" oil shield attached!

https://andrew-cars.s3.eu-west-2.amazon ... er-off.mp4
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Robsey
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Re: Vauxhall Senator

Post by Robsey »

Ooh I remember them old style rockers...
Love this retro stuff.

"It lives!!" :cool
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Mk3alan
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Re: Vauxhall Senator

Post by Mk3alan »

I remember one of our old Viva's had similar rockers and one of the push rods punched its way right through!
Had to weld it up that night to get to work next day.

Alan
cavalier1990
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Re: Vauxhall Senator

Post by cavalier1990 »

Mk3alan wrote:I remember one of our old Viva's had similar rockers and one of the push rods punched its way right through!
Had to weld it up that night to get to work next day.

Alan
Definitely an old school repair there Alan, in the days when you could get a rocker cover off in a couple of minutes!
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Re: Vauxhall Senator

Post by cavalier1990 »

Wee update on the senny. For a while I've been meaning to pull the back subframe off and fix the rear chassis legs and some other bits. I eventually got round to that the other weekend. Pulled the axle off and on each side there is a big plate with 3 bolt holes, this sits over the main subframe "doughnut" bush and the bolt for that goes through the plate. The 3 securing holes are located at each end of the plate, one bolts up into the chassis leg just before it hits the rear floor section, the other is next to the sill near back of floor and the other one is at back edge at sill box end.

Diagram here:

https://opel.catalogs-parts.com/#{clien ... bgroup:6-0}

One of the bolts when I was turning it ripped the metal right off the body where it was secured to, leaving the bolt semi-tight, secured to the plate with a chunk of metal under it that used to be part of the plate > body mount. Not good I hear you say, and exactly my own thoughts!

So obviously it was a good thing I decided to take axle off as that is quite a dangerous weakening of the axle mount. Tbh I don't think it would have went anywhere with the other 2 bolts and the doughnut bush bolted in place, however I will need to fashion a repair for this. All I really need is to weld in a new piece that has an angled horizontal plate sticking out with a hole and reweld the captive nut back on to it. Easier said than done more likely but that is the plan. The doughnut bushes look pretty well past it too, luckily I bought a pair of GM ones a while back so they will be getting fitted.

If it comes to it I might have to do the other side if it is looking crusty. Time will tell of course when I start serious digging.

Oh for the love of rust!
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Robsey
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Re: Vauxhall Senator

Post by Robsey »

Digging - serious or otherwise will bring a whole raft of extra repair work with it.
Better to be safe than sorry though.

As was the CavMk3OC mantra " it is all good progress".
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Re: Vauxhall Senator

Post by cavalier1990 »

Robsey wrote:Digging - serious or otherwise will bring a whole raft of extra repair work with it.
Better to be safe than sorry though.

As was the CavMk3OC mantra " it is all good progress".
So true Robsey. I am of the mind that once it's done it's done. No point doing half measure repairs only to have to revisit it a year later. I won't need to worry about it again.
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Re: Vauxhall Senator

Post by cavalier1990 »

Today I managed to get a bit of an afternoon in the sun doing some work on this. I started off drilling out the remaining back panel spot welds - I'd done some of them yesterday as a starter - and took the panel off about an hour or so later. A lot quicker than it took my dippy to come off. This was down to having the knowledge from the dippy experience. Drilling out spot welds is much easier and much much cleaner a job so would recommend anyone considering doing more serious bodywork to use this technique.

I then decided to tackle the jacking point/subframe mount panel which is stuck in under the corner of the back of the sill and is tacked onto the bottom of the floor and side of chassis leg, in other words a complete bummer to try and remove. I eventually had to chisel down from under the back seat through the stiffener section that goes along under the seat, so that I could chisel the remaining bit off that was holding it on. The floor panel around this area will be getting replaced anyway, this is like a triangular section that runs from the seat belt mount, much like the bit on the cavy, goes along chassis leg and along the front of where the back seat front section is.

I got some of the spot welds out so that the remnants of the panel would split from underneath the strengthener section and have almost removed it. There is a small bit of the jacking/subframe mount remaining, this was where it was cut off as I couldn't get grinder in close enough , or up far enough to cut it cleanly.

I've got the axle stand on this bit of chassis leg that will need repaired as I was chiselling and cutting to get the spot welds out (there is no chance I can get drill in this bit to remove spots) as part of it is spot welded onto the side of chassis leg. So will need to get one of those big axle stands and put it right in the middle of the car on the rear centre beam where axle goes, as I need the small stands out of the way, plus I can't be confident they will support the weight as I cut into the chassis leg.

Nest step - get big axle stand!
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Robsey
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Re: Vauxhall Senator

Post by Robsey »

Excellent - the Senator should be well within the weight capacity of most axle stands... 2 tons is normal duty for stands I believe.

It is a start... soon be done.
Looking forward to the pictures.
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Re: Vauxhall Senator

Post by cavalier1990 »

Here you go Robsey, some pics of the long overdue work on the senny and a wee description of my endeavours:

Finally got round to doing some work on the rear subframe mount today. As you all know I've been up to my eyes in getting my daily blue cavalier runaround back to an acceptable standard so this took a bit of a back seat.

The rear end on the senator is shot around the wheelarch area, the seat belt mounts, the inner and outer sills, mainly at the back of the sills, so have concentrated on cutting out all the old metal and starting to make up templates with zinc coated steel. The arches are proving to be a pain to rebuild so I've started with a template for the inner arch so I can slowly build up to the outer panel. The repair done to the arch was full of filler at the back where parts of the old arch were still there, so I actually used this as a template for the arch curve. The repair arch was from something else and the curve was lower and flatter so have not used that for any reference points.

Getting the N/S/R jacking plate/subframe mount out brought part of the chassis leg behind the floor with it, not due to rot, but mainly because the jacking point has an extension section that is spot welded onto one side of the chassis leg and the other to the inner sill, which was not that accessible to drill the spots out.


I had to cut and chisel this away resulting in a good chunk of the main chassis leg getting cut in the process. To add to the excitement I have hardly got a good bit I can place an axle stand on. The only place I could find was tight up against the end of the chassis leg where it meets the back of the floor pan. It does look quite precarious in the pics but does the job and is strong enough for now. I plan to get 2x700mm height stands which can then go on the back crossmember so I can get the smaller stands out of the way for the rebuild work.

Follwing are some of the pics I took once I had done the majority of the cutting out work. The rear subframe mount/jacking plate ended up taking most of the floor pan between jacking point and end of the back floor pan under the back seat. I had to drill through the spots on the strengthener bar under the back seats as well.

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Feel like I've made a good dent in the work to be done on this excuse the pun so off I go on my hols this week (Time to pick the dirt from my eyes lol) and next to get suitably refreshed and come back to hopefully start building it back up. I've taken lots of measurements of the square cm areas of metal I need as I have ran out of metal and need to order more.
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